Political Thread

[Jimmy Hypocracy]

You would have to be willfully blind/ignorant to not see the coordinated and relentless attack by the “system” against the sitting president of the United States. That’s enough to convince me that I’m perched on the right side of history ??

 

[jimmyrig]

Having read though this whole thread and watching what's unfolding in real time, I am genuinely curious what you think the "system" is @Jimmy Hypocracy.

From my perspective I see a sitting president asking other countries to interfere in our democratic elections and I can't see how anyone could consider that patriotic.

Also, thank god this heat is finally breaking.

 

[VegasEagle]

The founding fathers were very clear on the need for separation of church and state. They never wanted one religion to dictate laws that everyone had to follow. Wasn't Franklin a atheist?

Read my post more carefully. Can't see the forest due to the trees.

 

[Bham 99]

Quote from John Adams. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

 

[jimmyrig]

Quote from John Adams. "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Totally agree. Our Constitution was not prepared for a president with no consideration outside himself.

Edited to add: If you think our president is moral or religious I have some steaks, a fake education and several infidelities to sell you.

 

[Arcc]

I am not saying they didnt hold Christian views, what I am saying is that when they wrote the Constitution and DOI etc it was not to establish a Christian nation as most of them were not Christians at least not like most Christians I know.....Franklin for instance held similar views to Jefferson, they all believed in god, though the nature of the god does not match exactly with the traditional Abrahamic god of Christianity.....I guess the point I was poorly making is that most of them would not be accepted as Christians by most Christians in America today.....

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

Jefferson lost his faith after his wife’s death and time in France. I agree that Jefferson was not a Christian. Franklin’s faith was more complex, and I agree he was probably not a Christian as we have a letter from Adams to Franklin urging him to put his faith in Christ on his deathbed which if I remember right he responded something like he would find out soon if Christ was God.

That being said even if they were not Christians in the sense I believe, it is absolutely silly to call them Deists. Does anyone really believe if you put any of these men in today’s day that they would be called deists? No way, as I said before the went to Christian church regularly, they talked about the hand of God all the time and the regularly quoted the Bible as the spiritual and moral authority. They would be labeled Christians, then bigots, and then every other insult. To lump them in as deists is nothing more than a stretch to water down who they were.

So I’ll concede with you, we are not a Christian nation, we were just a nation of Christians founded on the Christian book for guidance, ideals and morality.

 

[Myfrotho704_]

Bernie needs to drop out, his health is not the best and that’s just a whole lot of added stress, I hope bad on nobody so I hope he gets better

 

[Downeastnc]

In Europe the government controlled all of the churches.. people came here for Religious Freedom. The only way to ensure there was religious freedom was to ensure that the government could not control the church. Immigrants didn't come here to escape the church, it was other way around.

Well this depends on how you look at it, the churches controlled the monarchs for much of the history of Europe well into the 17-18th centuries.....the very earliest immigrants to the US ( Pilgrims for instance ) did in fact come here to escape the church.

 

[crecre9]

Jefferson lost his faith after his wife’s death and time in France. I agree that Jefferson was not a Christian. Franklin’s faith was more complex, and I agree he was probably not a Christian as we have a letter from Adams to Franklin urging him to put his faith in Christ on his deathbed which if I remember right he responded something like he would find out soon if Christ was God.

That being said even if they were not Christians in the sense I believe, it is absolutely silly to call them Deists. Does anyone really believe if you put any of these men in today’s day that they would be called deists? No way, as I said before the went to Christian church regularly, they talked about the hand of God all the time and the regularly quoted the Bible as the spiritual and moral authority. They would be labeled Christians, then bigots, and then every other insult. To lump them in as deists is nothing more than a stretch to water down who they were.

So I’ll concede with you, we are not a Christian nation, we were just a nation of Christians founded on the Christian book for guidance, ideals and morality.

Really, despite the prevalence of Christianity, they had the foresight to realize that a nation and it's laws shouldn't be tied to a religion.

 

[Rain Cold]

Really, despite the prevalence of Christianity, they had the foresight to realize that a nation and it's laws shouldn't be tied to a religion.

Would be hard to find a major law that's not somehow affiliated with a religion. The whole separation of church and state thing is wildly misrepresented, and it's almost always used to combat Christianity. The founding fathers were not trying to eliminate morality, moral laws, and the like (which were most certainly affiliated with or tied directly into religious beliefs). They wanted to ensure that people had the right to worship freely and that the government did not impose a state religion, simply speaking.

 

[Downeastnc]

Jefferson lost his faith after his wife’s death and time in France. I agree that Jefferson was not a Christian. Franklin’s faith was more complex, and I agree he was probably not a Christian as we have a letter from Adams to Franklin urging him to put his faith in Christ on his deathbed which if I remember right he responded something like he would find out soon if Christ was God.

That being said even if they were not Christians in the sense I believe, it is absolutely silly to call them Deists. Does anyone really believe if you put any of these men in today’s day that they would be called deists? No way, as I said before the went to Christian church regularly, they talked about the hand of God all the time and the regularly quoted the Bible as the spiritual and moral authority. They would be labeled Christians, then bigots, and then every other insult. To lump them in as deists is nothing more than a stretch to water down who they were.

So I’ll concede with you, we are not a Christian nation, we were just a nation of Christians founded on the Christian book for guidance, ideals and morality.

So Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine etc would all be accepted as Christians even though they deny Christ was the son of god? They did not believe in the Trinity, biblical miracles, original sin, the resurrection etc etc.....pretty sure that does not qualify you as a Christian in today's America. I know they would not be considered Christians by any of the ones I know.....would you consider someone who does not believe Jesus was the son of God and that when he died he was not resurrected a Christian?

In fact many of the major players in the early days of out nation were in fact Deist, or at least Unitarians, the Deism movement in their time was very popular among the educated elite, there were devout Christians there too there is no doubt, Patrick Henry for example was a evangelical.....still most were Deist that's why you see them using phrases like divine providence, creator, laws of nature etc...they are considered by most scholars to be Deist/Unitarians and it's well documented.

 

[Downeastnc]

Oh oh

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...whistle-on-trumps-ukraine-dealings/ar-AAIiWJo

A second intelligence official who was alarmed by President Trump’s dealings with Ukraine is weighing whether to file his own formal whistle-blower complaint and testify to Congress, according to two people briefed on the matter.

The official has more direct information about the events than the first whistle-blower, whose complaint that Mr. Trump was using his power to get Ukraine to investigate his political rivals touched off an impeachment inquiry. The second official is among those interviewed by the intelligence community inspector general to corroborate the allegations of the original whistle-blower, one of the people said.

 

[Rain Cold]

So Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine etc would all be accepted as Christians even though they deny Christ was the son of god? They did not believe in the Trinity, biblical miracles, original sin, the resurrection etc etc.....pretty sure that does not qualify you as a Christian in today's America. I know they would not be considered Christians by any of the ones I know.....would you consider someone who does not believe Jesus was the son of God and that when he died he was not resurrected a Christian?

In fact many of the major players in the early days of out nation were in fact Deist, or at least Unitarians, the Deism movement in their time was very popular among the educated elite, there were devout Christians there too there is no doubt, Patrick Henry for example was a evangelical.....still most were Deist that's why you see them using phrases like divine providence, creator, laws of nature etc...they are considered by most scholars to be Deist/Unitarians and it's well documented.

They would probably be considered evangelicals.

 

[crecre9]

Would be hard to find a major law that's not somehow affiliated with a religion. The whole separation of church and state thing is wildly misrepresented, and it's almost always used to combat Christianity. The founding fathers were not trying to eliminate morality, moral laws, and the like (which were most certainly affiliated with or tied directly into religious beliefs). They wanted to ensure that people had the right to worship freely and that the government did not impose a state religion, simply speaking.

Of course they weren't trying to eliminate morality. Who claimed that? Morality exists outside of religion, as well as within it.

 

[Rain Cold]

Of course they weren't trying to eliminate morality. Who claimed that? Morality exists outside of religion, as well as within it.

What I'm saying is that you can't divorce morality from religion, which, by extension means that laws are naturally going to be influenced by the religious make-up of a country. And that's ok. As the make-up changes, laws will be influenced accordingly. We're seeing a lot of political tension today because of this relationship.

 

[pcbjr]

What I'm saying is that you can't divorce morality from religion, which, by extension means that laws are naturally going to be influenced by the religious make-up of a country. And that's ok. As the make-up changes, laws will be influenced accordingly. We're seeing a lot of political tension today because of this relationship.

I know many moral, conservative folks who don't have any religion. Feel sorry for them on the latter, but also realize there isn't a 1 to 1 correlation (some of the biggest A-'s I deal with are zealots) ...

 

[Rain Cold]

I know many moral, conservative folks who don't have any religion. Feel sorry for them on the latter, but also realize there isn't a 1 to 1 correlation (some of the biggest A-'s I deal with are zealots) ...

Agreed. I do too.

 

[GaWx]

I know many moral, conservative folks who don't have any religion. Feel sorry for them on the latter, but also realize there isn't a 1 to 1 correlation (some of the biggest A-'s I deal with are zealots) ...

I do, too. There’s no reason why religion should be required for someone to know what is right and what is wrong and to behave accordingly. I’d think common sense would be able to tell us.

 

[jimmyrig]

What I'm saying is that you can't divorce morality from religion, which, by extension means that laws are naturally going to be influenced by the religious make-up of a country. And that's ok. As the make-up changes, laws will be influenced accordingly. We're seeing a lot of political tension today because of this relationship.

I don't think this is true. You can be a good person without fearing a god or acting in anticipation of some reward in the afterlife. It's called "humanism."

 

[pcbjr]

I do, too. There’s no reason why religion should be required for someone to know what is right and what is wrong and to behave accordingly. I’d think common sense would be able to tell us.

common sense comes from a source ... parents, religion, street experience ... and some combination or other of those and many other things ... but at least a good prayer is worth a shot ... IMHO, a very big shot ... IMHO ...