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The topics of laws, morality, God, atheism, freedom and how they all intersect and entangle is interesting. One of the things that I find interesting is that I can't reconcile the fact that killing, child molestation, torture of an innocent person, etc. can, or even should, all be considered wrong without that notion being grounded in a morality that shouldn't exist in a collective manner throughout a species that came from nothing by a random set of specifically required variables, randomly combining in a specifically required way.

Anyway, if morality exists, then it came from somewhere. However, if there is no universal right or wrong -- no true moral boundaries-- then nobody has the right to have anything or expect anything, and all laws everywhere are rendered meaningless and should not be imposed upon anyone by anyone or any governing body.
 
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Downeastnc said:
Well In God We Trust was added in 1956.....and the Committee of 5 that drafted the Constitution ( Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Sherman, Livingston) were mostly Deist especially Franklin and Jefferson, for example neither believed Jesus was the son of god nor believed in the trinity etc...certainly their views would prevent them from being a member of any current mainstream Christian sects. Though there were very devout Christians among the founding fathers the core group that wrote most of the documents etc were Deist......

I also think its important to point out that this is not a "Christian" nation, the better turn of phrase would be a nation of Christians.....the Constitution expressly makes that very clear..the founders were very big on separation of church and state. So freedom of religion includes freedom from religion....sometimes ( and this is not one of them ) I get the feeling from some Christians that this should be a "Christian" nation instead of a nation of Christians and that many of these people would be ok with the Christian church playing a more prominent role in the government etc.....
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John Adams didn’t believe in Jesus? Very interesting considering how he sure liked to talk about him.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/90-John_Adams/tag/bible

Also interesting about our motto being In God is our trust being in our national anthem not just on our money.
 
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Heelyes said:
They are all corrupt only Trump is stupid enough to show it on national television. He is either very stupid or actually believes he can shoot someone in times square and people would still vote for him. I lost all respect for this excuse for a person when he dumped on McCain. He was to much of a coward to fight in Vietnam but likes heros that weren't captured.
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So is his stupidity and his mouth a crime worthy of impeachment? Make no mistake, I have no problem impeaching him but if we impeach him there is many many more to get.

One thing Trump is right about is the fact is they want him out otherwise the leaks wouldn’t be happening. If we could see all the things they cover up, Trump would look like a saint.
 
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Arcc said:
John Adams didn’t believe in Jesus? Very interesting considering how he sure liked to talk about him.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/90-John_Adams/tag/bible

Also interesting about our motto being In God is our trust being in our national anthem not just on our money.
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I said most not all....."were mostly Deist especially Franklin and Jefferson"...also God does not have to mean the God of the Abrahamic religions....again not a "Christian" nation.

Also on Adams.....these guys were not the fire and brimstone bible thumping Baptist people think they were....

But historian Gordon S. Wood (2017) writes, "Although both Jefferson and Adams denied the miracles of the Bible and the divinity of Christ, Adams always retained a respect for the religiosity of people that Jefferson never had; in fact, Jefferson tended in private company to mock religious feelings."[333]

In his retirement years, Adams moved away from some of the Puritan sentiments of his youth and closer to more mainstream Enlightenment religious ideals. He blamed institutional Christianity for causing much suffering but continued to be an active Christian while maintaining that religion was necessary for society. He became a Unitarian, rejecting the divinity of Jesus.[334] David L. Holmes argues that Adams, while adopting central tenets of the Unitarian creed, accepted Jesus as the redeemer of humanity and the biblical accounts of his miracles as true.[335]
 
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Downeastnc said:
yeah maybe split off a thread for debating the religious founding of our nation to the religious forum would hate to muck up a thread but the debate is interesting....
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Naw it's good, that was just a light hearted nod towards George Costanza's "world's are colliding" Seinfeld episode.

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Arcc said:
John Adams didn’t believe in Jesus? Very interesting considering how he sure liked to talk about him.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/90-John_Adams/tag/bible

Also interesting about our motto being In God is our trust being in our national anthem not just on our money.
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It's not in the anthem. It was added to the pledge of allegiance around the same time as being put on money in reaction to the red scare of communism
 
Heelyes said:
It's not in the anthem. It was added to the pledge of allegiance around the same time as being put on money in reaction to the red scare of communism
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It's in the 4th verse, yes there are 4 verses. Also of note songs written during that time usually emphasized their strongest message in the last stanza, here are the last words of the anthem

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just, And this be our motto - "In God is our trust," And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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Downeastnc said:
I said most not all....."were mostly Deist especially Franklin and Jefferson"...also God does not have to mean the God of the Abrahamic religions....again not a "Christian" nation.

Also on Adams.....these guys were not the fire and brimstone bible thumping Baptist people think they were....

But historian Gordon S. Wood (2017) writes, "Although both Jefferson and Adams denied the miracles of the Bible and the divinity of Christ, Adams always retained a respect for the religiosity of people that Jefferson never had; in fact, Jefferson tended in private company to mock religious feelings."[333]

In his retirement years, Adams moved away from some of the Puritan sentiments of his youth and closer to more mainstream Enlightenment religious ideals. He blamed institutional Christianity for causing much suffering but continued to be an active Christian while maintaining that religion was necessary for society. He became a Unitarian, rejecting the divinity of Jesus.[334] David L. Holmes argues that Adams, while adopting central tenets of the Unitarian creed, accepted Jesus as the redeemer of humanity and the biblical accounts of his miracles as true.[335]
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So they quoted the Bible as Gods word, yet weren’t talking about the God of that said word.

Secondly, they weren’t Bible thumpers, yet knew and obviously from quote after quote proved they knew more Bible than Bible thumpers.

The idea that they were deists yet constantly called on divine providence, quoted the Bible and regularly attended Christian churches is nothing more than revisionist. We’re they all Christians in the since of truly trusting Christ, odds say no. But to say they were deists just to make them seem like they held no Christian view is silly. After all some Baptists think Catholics are not “Christian “ in their sense, but they call that a different denomination not deism.
 
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How could a true Christian defend Trump? He represents the opposite of the teachings of Jesus. He shows no forgiveness or compassion and is more concerned with himself than others. He isn't even against abortion.
 
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Heelyes said:
How could a true Christian defend Trump? He represents the opposite of the teachings of Jesus. He shows no forgiveness or compassion and is more concerned with himself than others. He isn't even against abortion.
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I don’t think it’s that cut and dry. First let me be clear, I didn’t vote for Trump because of who he is and nothing has changed my mind to vote for him next year.

That said, even I will defend him on some things, now they are very few but I will.

As far as others go, I can’t say. That said people even Christians will do things when backed against the wall. I don’t agree with Christians voting for Trump because of who he is, but that said I understand their reasoning if it means stopping another view point that will lead to greater problems. I personally believe that view that you must choose the lesser evil to stop the greater evil is wrong, but like I said I understand logically the thought behind it.
 
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Arcc said:
So they quoted the Bible as Gods word, yet weren’t talking about the God of that said word.

Secondly, they weren’t Bible thumpers, yet knew and obviously from quote after quote proved they knew more Bible than Bible thumpers.

The idea that they were deists yet constantly called on divine providence, quoted the Bible and regularly attended Christian churches is nothing more than revisionist. We’re they all Christians in the since of truly trusting Christ, odds say no. But to say they were deists just to make them seem like they held no Christian view is silly. After all some Baptists think Catholics are not “Christian “ in their sense, but they call that a different denomination not deism.
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I am not saying they didnt hold Christian views, what I am saying is that when they wrote the Constitution and DOI etc it was not to establish a Christian nation as most of them were not Christians at least not like most Christians I know.....Franklin for instance held similar views to Jefferson, they all believed in god, though the nature of the god does not match exactly with the traditional Abrahamic god of Christianity.....I guess the point I was poorly making is that most of them would not be accepted as Christians by most Christians in America today.....

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”
 
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On the Trump scandal front it came out today that the top CIA lawyer ( a Trump appointee ) that the WB originally gave his complaint to thought it was enough for a criminal referral to the DOJ who then decided to not investigate it ( shocking huh) I mean I think we all know why it was not investigated cough BARR cough.....

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...l-referral-whistleblower-s-complaint-n1062481

WASHINGTON — Weeks before the whistleblower's complaint became public, the CIA's top lawyer made what she considered to be a criminal referral to the Justice Department about the whistleblower's allegations that President Donald Trump abused his office in pressuring the Ukrainian president, U.S. officials familiar with the matter tell NBC News.

The move by the CIA's general counsel, Trump appointee Courtney Simmons Elwood, meant she and other senior officials had concluded a potential crime had been committed, raising more questions about why the Justice Department later declined to open an investigation.
 
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Heelyes said:
How could a true Christian defend Trump? He represents the opposite of the teachings of Jesus. He shows no forgiveness or compassion and is more concerned with himself than others. He isn't even against abortion.
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He used to be pro-choice and now he is pro-life. It is evident in the judge's that he has put forth. During the debates with Hillary he even went against late-term term abortion. If he's pro-choice what does that make Democrats then? I am pro life, I think that is is a good thing when someone can change their views.
 
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Heelyes said:
No
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In Europe the government controlled all of the churches.. people came here for Religious Freedom. The only way to ensure there was religious freedom was to ensure that the government could not control the church. Immigrants didn't come here to escape the church, it was other way around.
 
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