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Misc All Things Religious

EastAtlwx

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I used to be a strong believer of God & what the Bible claims to be true.. that is until I decided to actually be receptive and dig into what people who thought otherwise.. I think it was like 2-3 weeks or less For me to arrive at the conclusion that the probability That the Christian god exists is extremely low.. things just don’t add up when you let down your ignorant guard..
 

Lickwx

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Yall probably would have never guessed it, but I am muslim . I know God is real, I see god in the miracles of this world. Life, the weather, nature. God is in every atom , every life form, and every star in the heavens above.

God loves you all, even if you dont lo

Now you may wonder , whats it like being Muslim in a rural area of the south? Actually , a whole lot better than you could ever imagine.
 

Downeastnc

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I used to be a strong believer of God & what the Bible claims to be true.. that is until I decided to actually be receptive and dig into what people who thought otherwise.. I think it was like 2-3 weeks or less For me to arrive at the conclusion that the probability That the Christian god exists is extremely low.. things just don’t add up when you let down your ignorant guard..
I dont consider believers ignorant, the conditioning is strong, its very very hard to accept and walk away from something you have been taught to believe your entire life. It was tough for me as a young teenagers when I realized it was all not true....even after I had determined that the god I was taught about was not not real I still had a hard time with it. Also since my grandfather was a preacher I had to stay in the closet with my non belief for a long time. Being Holiness Pentecostal meant they would think Satan or demons had me and would have tried to lay hands on me etc etc etc and exercise the demons that were causing me to lose my faith.
 

Arcc

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I used to be a strong believer of God & what the Bible claims to be true.. that is until I decided to actually be receptive and dig into what people who thought otherwise.. I think it was like 2-3 weeks or less For me to arrive at the conclusion that the probability That the Christian god exists is extremely low.. things just don’t add up when you let down your ignorant guard..
I was taught in a Christian home, accepted Christ early, and then had to face what I actually believed in my late teenage years. Was quite a war for a few months when I was faced with a choice. I made the choice to believe when I was at the crossroad I knew would be the course I would take for my life. Now my faith is stronger than it was. So I agree, everyone needs to let their ignorant guard down. It will either make you or break you, but the faith will never be your faith until you wrestle for it.
 
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I dont consider believers ignorant, the conditioning is strong, its very very hard to accept and walk away from something you have been taught to believe your entire life. It was tough for me as a young teenagers when I realized it was all not true....even after I had determined that the god I was taught about was not not real I still had a hard time with it. Also since my grandfather was a preacher I had to stay in the closet with my non belief for a long time. Being Holiness Pentecostal meant they would think Satan or demons had me and would have tried to lay hands on me etc etc etc and exercise the demons that were causing me to lose my faith.
Ouch, not the best example. Maybe that atmosphere contributed to your loss of faith.

On your first sentence, you may be surprised, but I agree conditioning is a concern. A fairly large number of Christians are indeed conditioned. I would say some conditioning happens due to control, some to poor understanding of God Himself, and multiple other reasons, Some are also due to parents who may have good intentions for their children, but don't do a good job of balancing the sharing of their own faith with understanding their children will have to make their own choice. After all, faith cannot be forced. However, I hope you recognize that conditioning absolutely happens the other way too; and encompasses the vast majority of places and entities in our society.

As for being taught to believe something your entire life, I would just add that there are too many examples of people changing beliefs as they grow up, or even forming views opposite of what they grew up with to say that is a sweeping factor. You are one example, I am another. I grew up in an agnostic household. Apparently you and I were exposed to different evidence or interpreted it differently. I became a Christian as the evidence for God became overwhelmingly more convincing for me than anything in the secular/scientific school of thought was.
 

Downeastnc

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Ouch, not the best example. Maybe that atmosphere contributed to your loss of faith.

On your first sentence, you may be surprised, but I agree conditioning is a concern. A fairly large number of Christians are indeed conditioned. I would say some conditioning happens due to control, some to poor understanding of God Himself, and multiple other reasons, Some are also due to parents who may have good intentions for their children, but don't do a good job of balancing the sharing of their own faith with understanding their children will have to make their own choice. After all, faith cannot be forced. However, I hope you recognize that conditioning absolutely happens the other way too; and encompasses the vast majority of places and entities in our society.

As for being taught to believe something your entire life, I would just add that there are too many examples of people changing beliefs as they grow up, or even forming views opposite of what they grew up with to say that is a sweeping factor. You are one example, I am another. I grew up in an agnostic household. Apparently you and I were exposed to different evidence or interpreted it differently. I became a Christian as the evidence for God became overwhelmingly more convincing for me than anything in the secular/scientific school of thought was.
No but Holiness Pentecostal is not for the weak of heart lol...lots of people flopping around on the floor or running around full of the "spirit" etc....and honestly this was a fairly tame Church of God....I distinctly remember wondering why I never seemed to catch the spirit and do all that stuff. now I understand why ( no such thing as god ) but back then I felt like I was doing something wrong, I was told all I had to do was open my heart and listen to the lord.....and well I never heard/felt anything.

I actually enjoyed church on a certain level as I had a crush on a few girls there and I only saw them at church....that was my sole motivation, well that and the food afterwards....and my best friend was a youth leader with the Catholics Youth Org and that group was chuck full of hot little Catholic girls and I did many many memorable and eventful lock ins with that group......😉

As for the conditioning part its very real, and your example not withstanding if you waited till everyone was 18 years old to introduce them to religion in general and then gave them access to ALL religions with no bias towards any given one then I suspect the number of people that went on to become extremely religious would be rather low....but maybe I am wrong.
 

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So speaking of conditioning. My 4 yr old is learning the pledge of allegiance and he likes to say it at home alot. When I say it I leave out the "under god" part. It was never in the original first 8 versions of the pledge anyways.

My wife also athiest says we cant do that because he has to say it correctly at school.

Why should I have to teach my son to say the pledge with reference to god? Why is my son being conditioned to believe in something that isn't real by a school system(next year when he starts K he is pre-K now) that is suppose to remain impartial?
 

Arcc

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As for the conditioning part its very real, and your example not withstanding if you waited till everyone was 18 years old to introduce them to religion in general and then gave them access to ALL religions with no bias towards any given one then I suspect the number of people that went on to become extremely religious would be rather low....but maybe I am wrong.
That depends on the situation. If you could do that example in a perfect world, I'd imagine the group would near 100% religous. However by "perfect" I mean absent of conditioning. The Western world is heavily skewed secular at this point and will condition a child from birth by the things taught, books read, movies watched, news heard and by the action of people in general that there is no God. So the test wouldn't be a true one. As someone trying to raise his children by a godly standard, the head winds of this world are great.
 

Downeastnc

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That depends on the situation. If you could do that example in a perfect world, I'd imagine the group would near 100% religous. However by "perfect" I mean absent of conditioning. The Western world is heavily skewed secular at this point and will condition a child from birth by the things taught, books read, movies watched, news heard and by the action of people in general that there is no God. So the test wouldn't be a true one. As someone trying to raise his children by a godly standard, the head winds of this world are great.
I guess I am bias as I know that my beliefs were 100% driven by indoctrination and conditioning, I raised my son without religion, not because I want him to be a atheist but rather to not influence him as much as possible. We caught flak for not having a baptism etc.....my wife, my brother ( Shaggy on this forum for those that dont know ) both my brother in laws one of them is married and his wife are all atheist, all of us come from religious households and were all raised to be Christians.....so thats 6 people I know that all left the church, I know zero people that went from atheist to religious as adults.....to be fair though I know almost no one that was raised atheist etc...the few I do know are still atheist.....

When we moved to where we live now my son became friends with the two boys next door.....they are now his two best friends and in a extremely religious household, they go to a Christian school etc...we however get along great with the parents and often sit outside at a firepit together etc, religion doesnt come up. His friends invited my son to go to their church several times and I told him it was up to him but he declined......ironically the youngest neighbor boy recently came out to my son as having become atheist and was asking questions etc....I told my son to tread carefully and just be a supportive friend....
 

Rain Cold

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So speaking of conditioning. My 4 yr old is learning the pledge of allegiance and he likes to say it at home alot. When I say it I leave out the "under god" part. It was never in the original first 8 versions of the pledge anyways.

My wife also athiest says we cant do that because he has to say it correctly at school.

Why should I have to teach my son to say the pledge with reference to god? Why is my son being conditioned to believe in something that isn't real by a school system(next year when he starts K he is pre-K now) that is suppose to remain impartial?
Do you have him cross out In God We Trust from the currency before using it?
 
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now I understand why ( no such thing as god ) but back then I felt like I was doing something wrong, I was told all I had to do was open my heart and listen to the lord.....and well I never heard/felt anything.

A couple of pages back you acknowledged you don't "believe" God exists (remember when we talked about proof), now you're back to absolute claims. Ok, where's your proof of the bold?

I actually enjoyed church on a certain level as I had a crush on a few girls there and I only saw them at church....that was my sole motivation, well that and the food afterwards....and my best friend was a youth leader with the Catholics Youth Org and that group was chuck full of hot little Catholic girls and I did many many memorable and eventful lock ins with that group......😉

This sheds a lot of light. Many, many people who deny or even turn away from God do so because they want to do their own thing, live how they want to live and, and in essence, be their own God.

As for the conditioning part its very real, and your example not withstanding if you waited till everyone was 18 years old to introduce them to religion in general and then gave them access to ALL religions with no bias towards any given one then I suspect the number of people that went on to become extremely religious would be rather low....but maybe I am wrong.

Yet this would be conditioning kids towards atheism, which our secular culture does anyway. You are right, the conditioning towards atheism is very strong indeed.

So speaking of conditioning. My 4 yr old is learning the pledge of allegiance and he likes to say it at home alot. When I say it I leave out the "under god" part. It was never in the original first 8 versions of the pledge anyways.

Conditioning?

My wife also athiest says we cant do that because he has to say it correctly at school.

Why should I have to teach my son to say the pledge with reference to god? Why is my son being conditioned to believe in something that isn't real by a school system(next year when he starts K he is pre-K now) that is suppose to remain impartial?

Absolute claim. Proof?

I guess I am bias as I know that my beliefs were 100% driven by indoctrination and conditioning, I raised my son without religion, not because I want him to be a atheist but rather to not influence him as much as possible. We caught flak for not having a baptism etc.....my wife, my brother ( Shaggy on this forum for those that dont know ) both my brother in laws one of them is married and his wife are all atheist, all of us come from religious households and were all raised to be Christians.....so thats 6 people I know that all left the church, I know zero people that went from atheist to religious as adults.....to be fair though I know almost no one that was raised atheist etc...the few I do know are still atheist.....

You are not alone, as many people turn away for those reasons. Honestly, I think if I were raised in that environment I would have rebelled against religion too. And this is a big problem with Christians. Many people turn away from God, not because of God, but because of us. You are correct in that lots of teens and young adults leave the church, but the reasons are many. In general, I don't think parents and the Church is doing a very good job of allowing kids to make the choice themselves (as they eventually will have to anyway) or teaching them how to defend their faith. Kids get exposed to our hyper secular culture as they grow, often attend an institution of higher learning that is completely hostile to religion, and lose their way. I know people this has been true of (to add to your 6), but I also know lots of people who did the opposite too.

When we moved to where we live now my son became friends with the two boys next door.....they are now his two best friends and in a extremely religious household, they go to a Christian school etc...we however get along great with the parents and often sit outside at a firepit together etc, religion doesnt come up. His friends invited my son to go to their church several times and I told him it was up to him but he declined......ironically the youngest neighbor boy recently came out to my son as having become atheist and was asking questions etc....I told my son to tread carefully and just be a supportive friend....

I am glad to hear you are being respectful and allowing your son to make a choice!

Didn't know you guys were brothers, very cool.
 

Downeastnc

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Didn't know you guys were brothers, very cool.
I didnt turn away from god, at least I dont see it like that because again there is no god, I turned away from the conditioning and indoctrination....determining that I didn't believe in god was easy, what was much harder was deprogramming myself from things I had been conditioned to do. Heck even today I still say "lord help me" or "god knows why" from time to time.....not because I mean it but because its burned into me habit wise....

As for proof there is no god, obviously I cant prove it....does not change the fact I am sure there is no god.....just like you are sure there is one. On the science side of things I think there is tons of solid evidence that the Christian mythos ( and all the other religion mythos for that matter) are not factual. Things like Noah's flood, creationism, the Earth is only 6,000 yrs old, people living hundreds of years, dinosaurs and man existing together at the same time etc....none of that is real......
 

NCSNOW

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Romans 1:28 English Standard Version (ESV)
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
 
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I didnt turn away from god, at least I dont see it like that because again there is no god, I turned away from the conditioning and indoctrination....determining that I didn't believe in god was easy, what was much harder was deprogramming myself from things I had been conditioned to do. Heck even today I still say "lord help me" or "god knows why" from time to time.....not because I mean it but because its burned into me habit wise....

As for proof there is no god, obviously I cant prove it....does not change the fact I am sure there is no god.....just like you are sure there is one. On the science side of things I think there is tons of solid evidence that the Christian mythos ( and all the other religion mythos for that matter) are not factual. Things like Noah's flood, creationism, the Earth is only 6,000 yrs old, people living hundreds of years, dinosaurs and man existing together at the same time etc....none of that is real......
The bolded is neither logical nor rational. If you cannot prove it then you cannot present it as fact, only as your opinion or belief. The bold indicates both. The red is a belief statement which seems to contradict other statements. For the blue, are you saying this is fact or opinion? Can you prove it? All of your statements about there being no God are your opinions. You are free to hold them of course, but you are presenting them as factual (both to us and to yourself) without one shred of proof. One cannot use opinions for proof.

BTW, some of these points are not matters that are essential to faith and salvation. While age of the Earth is interesting, it doesn't matter at all for faith and salvation. Whether the Earth is 6000 years or 14.6 Billion years old it does not affect the possibility of God at all.
 

Downeastnc

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The bolded is neither logical nor rational. If you cannot prove it then you cannot present it as fact, only as your opinion or belief. The bold indicates both. The red is a belief statement which seems to contradict other statements. For the blue, are you saying this is fact or opinion? Can you prove it? All of your statements about there being no God are your opinions. You are free to hold them of course, but you are presenting them as factual (both to us and to yourself) without one shred of proof. One cannot use opinions for proof.

BTW, some of these points are not matters that are essential to faith and salvation. While age of the Earth is interesting, it doesn't matter at all for faith and salvation. Whether the Earth is 6000 years or 14.6 Billion years old it does not affect the possibility of God at all.
I see very few Christians going around saying I know there is a god but then quantify that with saying "its only my opinion and not a fact and therefor god may not be real"......so if we hold Christians to the same criteria you are holding me too then essentially you are saying that every single Christian on this planet must admit that they might be wrong and there is no god since they have not one shred of proof god is real. If not then when they say god is real its neither logical or rational.....

It does matter if people literally believe the bible on things like Noah flood and how old Earth is etc....because we know what is factual there and that matters.....
 

Arcc

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I see very few Christians going around saying I know there is a god but then quantify that with saying "its only my opinion and not a fact and therefor god may not be real"......so if we hold Christians to the same criteria you are holding me too then essentially you are saying that every single Christian on this planet must admit that they might be wrong and there is no god since they have not one shred of proof god is real. If not then when they say god is real its neither logical or rational.....

It does matter if people literally believe the bible on things like Noah flood and how old Earth is etc....because we know what is factual there and that matters.....
I have no issue with saying myself as fallible man could be wrong and could be deranged. That said if there is no God and my life and all it’s divinely inspired steps were just a very long series of coincidences, by your rule I will never know it. Not that I would change my life regardless.
 

Arcc

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@Iceagewhereartthou if there is so much proof god is real then why does religion require so much faith?
It doesn’t. To the person who is seeking with an open heart, the faith needed is very small. To the person with the closed heart who is not seeking, there isn’t enough faith in the world to save him.
 

MichaelJ

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We all have faith just in different things, when you sit down in a chair you have faith it will hold you up. When you drop a ball, you have faith gravity will make it fall. Having said that, not every place has gravity but every place has God
 

Cad Wedge NC

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@Iceagewhereartthou if there is so much proof god is real then why does religion require so much faith?
The proof is in the Bible. Here we have a history Book which proves that God did all the things that are in question. What you are really doubting is whether or not the Bible is the truth. Correct me if I am wrong.....
 

Cad Wedge NC

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I see very few Christians going around saying I know there is a god but then quantify that with saying "its only my opinion and not a fact and therefor god may not be real"......so if we hold Christians to the same criteria you are holding me too then essentially you are saying that every single Christian on this planet must admit that they might be wrong and there is no god since they have not one shred of proof god is real. If not then when they say god is real its neither logical or rational.....

It does matter if people literally believe the bible on things like Noah flood and how old Earth is etc....because we know what is factual there and that matters.....
If there is no God and I live my entire life in a delusional world, then that's ok. I will die and return to the dirt and that will be that. Same as you. However, if I am right and there is a God, then your in big trouble when the death angel comes calling for you. You are essentially betting your soul that God is not real. Big mistake....
 

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If there is no God and I live my entire life in a delusional world, then that's ok. I will die and return to the dirt and that will be that. Same as you. However, if I am right and there is a God, then your in big trouble when the death angel comes calling for you. You are essentially betting your soul that God is not real. Big mistake....
Its not a delusional world.....also it seems to me you live your life in fear of what might happen, and if you want to waste part of your life going to church and worrying about gods wrath have at it.....

The fear you Christians have I understand as I use to have it too......
 

Downeastnc

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The proof is in the Bible. Here we have a history Book which proves that God did all the things that are in question. What you are really doubting is whether or not the Bible is the truth. Correct me if I am wrong.....
Well there are things the bible says happen we KNOW are not true, and there are lots of Christians that believe everything in the bible literally happened even though we know it did not happen. So how do you square that, well other than denouncing the science as wrong and then replacing it with very unscientific "facts" that are anything but....
 

Cad Wedge NC

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Well there are things the bible says happen we KNOW are not true, and there are lots of Christians that believe everything in the bible literally happened even though we know it did not happen. So how do you square that, well other than denouncing the science as wrong and then replacing it with very unscientific "facts" that are anything but....
What exactly would those things be?...... Even though I find some parts of the Bible hard to wrap my head around, I will never say that It's not true.
 

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What exactly would those things be?...... Even though I find some parts of the Bible hard to wrap my head around, I will never say that It's not true.
Well the normal stuff like Noah's flood/ark, parting the Red Sea, people living to be hundreds of years old, dinosaurs and man living at the same time etc etc etc...
 

Arcc

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Its not a delusional world.....also it seems to me you live your life in fear of what might happen, and if you want to waste part of your life going to church and worrying about gods wrath have at it.....

The fear you Christians have I understand as I use to have it too......
I actually don’t fear that.

I fear bringing shame to the name of Christ.
 
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I see very few Christians going around saying I know there is a god but then quantify that with saying "its only my opinion and not a fact and therefor god may not be real"......so if we hold Christians to the same criteria you are holding me too then essentially you are saying that every single Christian on this planet must admit that they might be wrong and there is no god since they have not one shred of proof god is real. If not then when they say god is real its neither logical or rational.....

It does matter if people literally believe the bible on things like Noah flood and how old Earth is etc....because we know what is factual there and that matters.....
Sorry I'm just getting around to responding Downeast. I certainly can't speak for other Christians, but I think it is certainly fair to apply that standard to Christians as well, and I don't think it would cause a problem. While it's true you'll hear some Christians say "I know there is a God," most readily admit their philosophy requires a bit of faith, which is a necessary foundation for a Christian. In fact, I don't remember specifically ever hearing a Christian say they could prove that God exists (though I am sure it happens). One of the big differences between the thought processes of theists and atheists is that theists admit (and even celebrate) that their worldview incorporates a bit of faith, whereas atheists almost always put themselves as far away from the word "faith" as they can get. "Atheism is a lack of faith" is a common line. Yet logically, we see that is not true, as the atheism worldview also takes faith. This idea that atheists don't have faith allows them to think they deal in "fact" while theists deal in "opinion," but that is not the case.

As for the flood, Earth age, and dinosaurs; I personally would not be confident enough to say "we know what is factual." I think we could have whole degree programs on all those topics so we will not solve them here and I certainly don't have all the answers on all those topics. We could quibble from now about how many animals Noah would have needed, how the ark could have been built soundly enough, fossils and carbon dating, etc. As I stated earlier, I think they are interesting topics to discuss but they are not essential for belief in God or Jesus or salvation. I seriously do not think (I may be wrong) God will ask us how old we thought the Earth was or if we thought dinosaurs and man lived together as a qualification test. John 3:16 gives a good summary of the essential tenets of Christianity. "God, love, begotten Son, belief, everlasting life."
 
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@Iceagewhereartthou if there is so much proof god is real then why does religion require so much faith?
I don't think I ever said there was "proof" and if did I shouldn't have (in fact, I've been pointing out the opposite to be intellectually honest). I think I have said I see a lot of evidence. Yes, it does require faith, but NOT blind faith. I consider myself a thinking person and have questioned and talked and researched and read and questioned again; heck it takes me weeks to decide what pillow or appliance to buy! We all have to decide what we believe when it comes to God. He either exists or He does not. I believe He exists as I see far more evidence that He does than that He does not.
 
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