EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
Clearly not understanding the flaw but anyways I’m out of here. Peace.
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Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
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EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
but Shakespeare and his work is undeniably real. It likes if i tried to prove a fairy tell is real just because a book says it is without providing tangible evidence for it. Anybody could make a book, state a claim; and use it as proof; but if there is no real evidence or something that's tries to prove it rather than stating it as fact; its automatically an inaccurate source to me; the likelihood of said claim to be right is probably small & thus shouldn't just be assumed as factually correct which lies in the realm of confirmation bias.
You didn’t use the argument that you just dont believe it or think the Bible is false. Clearly you do believe that way and that is your business.
Your original argument was on biblical terms and doctrine. You cannot debate or discuss a term or statement in something if you remove the object that cites it. Remove the Bible as the source and predestination and free will are just words that cannot be debated beyond what they mean in our world.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
No. I wanted to hear opinions from Christians on the topic I didn’t specify further than that.
Yes and Christians are gonna give their understandings of the scripture where their belief originated from and where these terms are found. If you remove that base, there is no reason for asking. There is no other reason to talk about these terms because without the belief in a higher being there is no such thing as predestination and it couldn’t exist to be argued for or against.
snowlover91
Member
You wanted opinions about how mans free will and predestination operates in relation to God but don’t want people to use the Bible to answer the question? If you mean mans free will and predestination in general absent a God that’s an entirely different type of debate.
I think a greater, underlying point is that most of us can acknowledge that most humans consider it wrong to murder, at least to some extent. Most humans operate within a set of common moral boundaries that allows us to exist together. I'm not talking about warring tribes or the deranged individual. But we can usually agree on some basic moral principles. Number 1, where does that come from? And number 2, if there isn't anything that gives rise to a true right and a true wrong, then what gives anyone the right to impose their sense of right and wrong upon another?
You can't adhere to basic cultural morals/laws/rules, claiming that there is no universal source which defines right and wrong, and then go on to condemn anyone for their behavior, whatever it is. You must wholeheartedly support the view that everyone should be allowed to behave however they want and do whatever they want, no matter how it affects anyone else. You must hold this view, if there is no universal definition of right and wrong -- no common moral compass that guides mankind.
The only other alternative is that you must accept that there is a source of absolute right and wrong, at least on some level. And the problem for atheists is that this inherently means that something greater than mankind exists that gives rise to this.
snowlover91
Member
The Bible is undeniably real too, it’s simply a matter of whether one believes the claims made in it. Those are 2 separate arguments. One can see the reality of both the Bible and what Shakespeare wrote but debate the ideas/claims each one makes which are two separate areas of argument.
Shaggy
Member
Theres a reason everything proving god is real is vague. It's like all the grainy horrible photos of bigfoot. Nothing concrete but plenty of speculation.
God is never there when it boils down to certain things. Prayer is a good example. No matter how many times,hard, or seriously one prays about certain things the prayers will NEVER be answered and the reason is because these outcomes are always going to be what they are and are not changeable even for a supposed god.
God is never there when it boils down to certain things. Prayer is a good example. No matter how many times,hard, or seriously one prays about certain things the prayers will NEVER be answered and the reason is because these outcomes are always going to be what they are and are not changeable even for a supposed god.
snowlover91
Member
I think prayer is often misunderstood and sometimes preached the wrong way as well within the church. God always does answer prayer but it may not necessarily be the way you or I hoped it would turn out. That doesn't prove that God does or does not exist, it means that sometimes what we think should/should not happen may not be a part of God's plan and so He says no. It's like if my 2 year old son asks me for chocolate for supper. He knows chocolate is good, he loves it and will beg me in all sorts of ways for it but with the greater amount of knowledge I have than him I tell him no because at that time he needs food that will meet his nutritional needs instead of his sweet tooth. What my son thinks is best for him and what I consider best for him may at times be completely different and also based on how he asks for something as well. It's not a perfect example but I consider myself as the 2 year old approaching God in prayer, praying and asking for what I believe would be best but also realizing that I do not have the same level of knowledge/wisdom that God does. If God answers no I then pray for God's help to handle the situation in the best possible way and to trust Him even if I do not understand why He said no.
It's difficult for us to understand the mind of God in these matters, especially in a situation where we may pray for the healing of a loved one or family member and yet they still end up dying. One of the key concepts in the Model Prayer in Matthew is that we pray for God's will to be done. In essence the meaning behind this is we may pray for the healing of a loved one, for example, but we also pray for God to help us accept the outcome if His will is not to heal that person. I have seen both sides of prayer over the years, sometimes where many people pray for something and it doesn't happen in the way they pray but also I have seen some miracles performed where doctors gave someone no hope to live (for example stage 4 cancer, confirmed but multiple scans and tests) and then that person's cancer miraculously disappeared after many people prayed leaving the doctors speechless at how it could happen. None of this proves the existence of God but hopefully it sheds a little light on how I view prayer as a Christian and why it seems like God often says "no" to things we think he should say "yes" to.
NCSNOW
Member
Well stated RC.
Yes Gawx if your asking if I feel murder is bad, absoloutely. Cause I see value in every life. Whether someone has the same viewpoint as me or not. Thats why its heart breaking seeing babies butchered by the millions and it deemed as being alright,cause its a social issue , choice...
Because I see life as a gift from God. Not just my life but everyones. Apparently there are alot of people who dont view life that way. Its understandable because they dont beleive in God. Their is no absolute compass to guide them.
So the fact weve murdered over 60 million plus babies in this country alone over the past 4- 5 dacades illustrates that they have no guilt or shame in continuing to promote this.
Yes Gawx if your asking if I feel murder is bad, absoloutely. Cause I see value in every life. Whether someone has the same viewpoint as me or not. Thats why its heart breaking seeing babies butchered by the millions and it deemed as being alright,cause its a social issue , choice...
Because I see life as a gift from God. Not just my life but everyones. Apparently there are alot of people who dont view life that way. Its understandable because they dont beleive in God. Their is no absolute compass to guide them.
So the fact weve murdered over 60 million plus babies in this country alone over the past 4- 5 dacades illustrates that they have no guilt or shame in continuing to promote this.
NCSNOW
Member
Isaiah 55: 8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
So does that prove that God doesn't exist, or does it acknowledge that he might exist and if he does, then there are things about his nature that we don't fully understand?
I'm not at all asking if you feel murder is bad. Why? Because I don't feel the need to because I assume you as well as the vast majority of people feel that way based on the assumption of common decency, not on the basis of assuming you and others are fellow believers in the Almighty. You kind of made it sound like that belief was pretty essential to have that common decency. That's what I strongly disagree with you on.
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Downeastnc
Member
Society determines what is right or wrong, as a rule society regardless of which god they believe in has the same general laws and rules, this is because over time we have learned that killing/harming/stealing are counter productive. Back in the middle ages when religion was law a lot of things we today as a society do not allow was legal and accepted, burning witches at the stake or killing/imprisoning people for heresy for example....
A big mistake people have is also assuming their culture or rules are the "right" ones......again it goes back to whatever the society allows and accepts....they are not mutually exclusive.
Shaggy
Member
No it means god doesnt exist and when those and other prayers arent met then its excused as " god works in mysterious ways".
snowlover91
Member
A lot of what they did back in the middle ages in the name of "religion" was not supported by a biblical worldview either, there were some crazy things that happened in the name of "religion" back then that I would strongly condemn. What I find interesting is that you seem to disapprove of what they did in the Middle Ages yet according to the society back then this was perfectly acceptable behavior. If their society deemed that behavior acceptable, what right do you have to say their society was wrong about that or condemn them for it if society determines right/wrong?
If a society allows/accepts something as morally good or bad, does that actually make it so? The problem with viewing morality based off a culture is that every culture has a view of what is "moral" and if you go to various cultures you will find conflicting views of morality not to mention the views of morality will shift with time. If you go to one culture and murder is acceptable and it's not in another, which one do you personally abide by and why? If society determines morality, how can one society say murder is wrong but another society deem it acceptable? Which one is morally correct and why?
The Nazis decided their mass murder and concentration camps were acceptable but other nations then and now condemned it. To the Nazi's it was a "good" thing and their overall society approved of the mass murder/torture they engaged in. How about the radical Muslims who commit suicide and murder numerous innocent people and execute homosexuals? In their view this is perfectly acceptable in their society. What right do you or I have to speak against them for their murderous actions if their behavior is morally acceptable in their own society? If society determines what is right then there is nothing wrong with what the Nazi's did, what the Muslims do or what the Middle Age church people did because all of those things were morally acceptable to their specific society and culture. I simply don't understand the logic behind society dictating morality because you run into some massive problems when you have different societies with shifting values or contradicting ones.
pcbjr
Member
3 commandments ... Love your God; love your brother; then do unto others ... sums up my Catholicism, faith and entire world view ...
WEATHERBOYROY
Member
I have seen answered prayers in my life. Some things you might write off as coincidence, but some things that there was no other explanation.
Just because God doesn't respond the way you want Him to doesn't mean He doesn't answer.... but He doesn't owe you anything, not even a response, especially when your heart is full of pride and unbelief. Who are you that you can stand against the Almighty? Why should He speak to you? God's invisible qualities, His Divine Nature, His eternal qualities , are clearly seen by what has been created.....you are without excuse. When you humble yourself and seek God with all your heart , you're gonna find Him.....Either way you'll find Him one day.
Shaggy
Member
Because he is suppose to love all of us?
Any prayer can vaguely answered but when it comes down to tangible prayers that require miracles they never happen.
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