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Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
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So true. I accepted Christ as Saviour in my life Jan 15th, 1989. No the road hasn't always been easy but I now have someone that I can pray to anytime I want. I love my Church and have been faithful since salvation. I thank God for the good and bad in my life.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Downeastnc
Member
Its not really free, your fealty is required to get that "free" gift. So if a guy like me a atheist who lives a good life and is a good person dies I automatically go to hell right? Sounds to me like your god is more worried about your belief in it than in what kind of life you live. If someone lives a horrible life raping and killing kids for example and in the last moments of their lives they repent and accept Jesus/god they get to go to heaven correct? So I who live a clean life and do good deeds but does not believe in god automatically goes to hell, its hilarious, how does that show a loving caring god. Of course I don't think there is a god at all so I am just pointing out some of the fallacies that lead me to the conclusion that god is not real.
I dont want this to turn into a religious debate as I don't really think this is the thread for it, so I will leave it at that, if you need a belief in a god in your life I totally understand and respect that.
First of all this is the the religious thread, so if there is a thread to debate it, this is it. Second, you can't quote someone, call what they believe hilarious and full of fallacies, then state you don't want this to turn into a debate. You got to know your response will warrant a return response...just keep it civil.
Btw, I'll also respond for what it's worth - God tells us in His word, that he did not send Jesus to the world to condemn the world but to save it, for those who do not believe are condemned already. And the gift is free, sure He expects loyalty to Him from us but what he truly desires is our fellowship/relationship. For those of us who have accepted Him as our Lord and Savior, it's not fealty, it's not this demanded loyalty, we desire to praise Him, we desire to commune with Him, because he has save a wretched sinner like me. It really is a simple as admitting, accepting and believing. But all I can do is plant the seed, pray over it and let God work.... some will accept and many unfortunately will reject.
Also you are correct, if one commits the most heinous of crimes and truly accepts Christ before they die then their sins will be forgiven and they can spend eternity with God. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross and that day he was in paradise with Him.... it's difficult for us to wrap our minds around I know but for me it isn't about "that's not fair I've been a Christian all my life". For Christians, it's a joyous occasion when one accepts Christ, no matter what or for how long they may have lived in sin. Keep in mind that even those who live a "good clean life" aren't perfect, no has been, is or ever will be perfect..... except Jesus. That is why we needed a Savior and there are no conditions, it is agape love (without conditions).
I have really tried to see and understand the point of view that everything we are able to behold and experience just came together and developed by random chance. Even before I was a Christian, I pondered this. For me, it's as simple as it just doesn't pass the sniff test. That's not scientific or emotional at all. But for me, the idea that totality of the complexity and wonder of every essence of the natural world is an amalgamation of a random set of circumstances that just happened to come together at the right time, in the right sequence, and in the right configuration is just inexplicable and unbelievable on it's face.
Fountainguy97
Member
1st Bold: Good deeds have nothing to do with Salvation at all. Are good deeds good? sure. Is it expected of Christians to do "good deeds" and reach out to their community? Yes. But "good deeds" are not an ingredient to being saved. Hence the term "free gift."
2nd Bold: Because a person who lived a "terrible" life is able to go spend eternity in Heaven rather than Hell? That's the epitome of God's love not proof against it.
Downeastnc
Member
I went back and forth on the whole something from nothing problem, its a daunting one and I considered myself agnostic for several years due to it. Where I ended up on it is the only thing harder for me to believe than a random set of circumstances came together in the right sequence and right configuration to create the universe is that some magical omnipotent timeless sky daddy created it instead. That also leads to the god paradox, who created god, if god doesn't need a creator to exist then why does the universe need a creator to exist.
The last sentence seems fairly easy to defend, at least superficially. It starts with the assumptions that both God and the universe exist and that nothing created God (i.e. he always was, is, and will be). From there, it's an apples to oranges comparison. God is an omnipotent entity. The universe is material. The inverse argument is that everything came from nothing. To hold that position seems much more ludicrous to me.
It’s not really as simple to say God demands you to believe in him to escape hell. That is even a more simple view than the whole cold air clashing with hot air brings severe weather.
God demands perfection not belief to be in his presence. In James it says even the demons believe. To get perfection God came through Christ to suffer a horrible death so to prove his love through the mortal eye and be a physical sacrifice but on the spiritual side the perfect God took all the sins of mankind through all history and took all the hell and separation from God for all eternity for every person who ever lived. The thing God is asking the world is, “do you want Christ to bare your punishment or take it yourself”, not “if you don’t believe I’ll send you to hell because I’m irritated you didn’t believe.”
Downeastnc
Member
I guess for me its just as easy to believe the universe has always existed or that it came from "nothing" ( again not sure what that even is though) versus a magic guy always existing and deciding to create a massive universe to populate with people to worship it.
Also the time frame involved is billions of years, I mean these random interactions that lead to life literally occurred for billions of years before succeeding, untold numbers of bacteria and other single cell critters splitting and mutating trillions of times so probability wise its not that hard to believe that eventually more organized life developed all without divine intervention....
snowlover91
Member
It all boils down to believing either that these random circumstances and events, given enough time, created everything we see today OR there is a God who has always existed and created what we have today with specific purpose/design in mind. There is a difference between believing there is a God who is an omnipotent being who has always existed vs believing that everything came from nothing which is absolutely contradictory to everything we see around us. One also has to ponder the question of what happens after a person dies? Does all consciousness and everything you are in this life simply cease to exist or does the consciousness we have persist after death? And if your consciousness ceases to exist what is that transition from consciousness/life to death/no consciousness for all of time like? For me I went through a deep searching period to find the truth in my high school years, weighed the evidence and ultimately found the evidence for Christianity is incredibly strong and makes far more sense logically vs an evolutionary worldview.
At the end of day it is a matter of faith whether one trusts that there is a God who created all things and made us with a soul that will persist after death OR that all we see in the universe is all blind chance including life itself. Each person is responsible for how they respond to the light and opportunity God has given them.
snowlover91
Member
Look at it this way, God originally created the earth for man to enjoy it, have dominion over all the things of the earth and to enjoy a perfect world and fellowship with Him. Think for a minute what this earth would be like if this earth was without war, violence, anger, criminals, hatred, etc. every bad thing and instead filled with a people who can enjoy the beauty of the earth, fellowship with one another and with the One who made them and loves them perfectly. Human beings have built within them the desire to have fellowship/friendship, to be accepted and loved, etc all things that God built into us. Scripture tells us that one day God will destroy this earth and create a New Earth which will be what God originally intended but without the curse of sin that plagues this current earth we live on.
Downeastnc
Member
Right but God built all that horrible nasty stuff into us the violence, war, hatred etc.....we were created in his image ,God is perfect and makes no mistakes so we are what he intended, he could with the wave of his hand make all that stuff go away right? He could with a thought return all of us to the Garden of Eden...….so it must be God wants it this way...…pretty lousy god if you ask me.
The stuff you speak of is from the curse of Man's sin. He created humans with the ability to choose rightly or wrongly. God did not want to create a bunch of robots, that would be lousy as you say.
snowlover91
Member
Man was originally created without sin, perfect, good and in the image of God. However, Satan's plan was to deceive Adam/Eve and they ended up disobeying God to which there were severe consequences. What you are asking for is for God to force His changes on everyone against their will. The only people who can be in the New Earth are those who have been turned from their sin and placed their faith in God, He can't bring every single person from earth to Heaven like what you are suggesting. Furthermore, if God gave us all what we truly deserved He would wipe every single human off the face of the earth and be done with us or would literally be forcing people against their will (a robot) to do exactly what he wanted. That would mean for you and me, anytime we are faced with the prospect of breaking God's law (sin) God would have to either kill us to prevent it from happening or force us to do something differently. Man was created with the ability to choose and make choices, to suffer the good or bad consequences of them. Adam made a bad choice and mankind is under the curse of sin as a result... but the promise from God in Scripture is that He will one day restore the earth how it was intended to be and all of His people will live in peace/unity with Him on that New Earth. Those who rejected God and lived in rebellion against Him will not be there. The reason God doesn't just destroy this world now and create the new one is also explained in Scripture; it's to give people like you and I a chance to place our faith in Him so that we can enjoy eternity in the perfect world that He will create when this one is finally purged/destroyed. What God wants is for all people to one day be in the perfect world He creates again but He will not force anyone there. We each are responsible for how we respond to God just as Adam was in the beginning and there are consequences for our choices. I understand where you are coming from, I wrestled with a lot of these questions in high school and college and spent a great deal of time working through them and searching for answers.
NCSNOW
Member
You dont go to hell because you are murder,drunkard, thief,, hypocrite fill in the blank.
A person goes to hell because they dont have a relationship with Jesus Christ,[arent saved lost]. Thats the Bible,not me.
Heres some food for thought.
If God created this World, you beleive in creation. Doesnt it make sense he would supply a book,manuual so to speak expressing why ,how,what,where and whats to come? You guys check it out, I pray you find the truth and im more than willing to answer any questions anyone has.
One of the biggest atheist of modern time, a guy from Yale named Lee Strobel actually authored a book, turned into a motion picture "The case for Christ."
We have so desensitized God and who he really is in todays society. Hes not santa claus or the easter bunny. Hes real. The fact everyone on here recognizes todays date as 2020 ought to be telling. Its 2020 years after the death of a man named Jesus Christ. His life here on earth is the most significant event in the history of the world. You have to ask yourself why is that?
Remember folks God gives all of us the freedom to choose him,or reject him. Its your decession and you alone are solely responsible for it. Everyone will have eternal life. We will spend it eitheir in Heaven or Hell (thats the Bible/ Not NCSnow, some denominational church theology).
You werent created to just spend 72.5 average years here on earth and then thats it, all she wrote? Think about that. The world tells you,you evolved from a monkey after some massive explosion billions of years ago. And over time you just happened to reside in a place where there is a perfect balance of atmospheric gasses,developed these great communication skills and the reward is you live about 72.5 years and then they burry you. So live it up while your here,you can cause thats all there is. How depressing.
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Downeastnc
Member
I don't wrestle with these questions....to me there are two different levels that I approached gods on, one is the physical science side and the other is the philosophical side....after along time of thinking things through these two levels I came to the conclusion that there is no god.....that was 25 yrs ago or so by now. I do enjoy these little debates though as it gives me perspective and in the end helps reinforce my beliefs.
Right now we are talking more on the philosophical side of things....you above points are noted but why not just pop up in front of everyone and declare yourself, declare yourself the one true god, ask everyone to repent and accept you and move on, hardly seems fair the make believing in you a prerequisite to everlasting salvation then not putting in a appearance as proof you exist.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
I would like to hear some counter-arguments against the problem of pre-determinism vs free-will. Everything I’ve heard from Christians on this topic has been filled with confirmation bias towards their god is all-knowing & we don’t know anything so we shouldn’t question. This is a common tactic the Bible uses to deceive people into blind faith. & to add on top of that, no one in the Christian community ever questions that maybe the god depicted in the Bible is actually an evil god
No one questions if the God if the Bible is an evil God because it doesn’t hold water at all.
I’ll ride with what Vernon McGee said in the predestination/free will issue, “Do I believe in predestination or free will? Yes”
I’m of the opinion that God wants us to question everything. As said in a Christian magazine, a person who doesn’t question anything or have any doubts, doesn’t really have faith. Doubts bring questions, which brings searching which brings answers which brings faith.
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