Shaggy
Member
So wait!!! God doesnt listen to sinners yet he gave his only begotten son for them? Yall wonder why some of us wish to ignore such a contradictory fairy tale?
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Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
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So wait!!! God doesnt listen to sinners yet he gave his only begotten son for them? Yall wonder why some of us wish to ignore such a contradictory fairy tale?
snowlover91
Member
I think you missed the context of my post. Shaggy made the claim that God doesn’t answer specific prayers healing people who are about to die and I was giving an example of a situation where this did in fact happen. Whether you believe it to be coincidence or an act of God is another debate entirely. You’ll see in my other posts I said answered prayer doesn’t prove the existence of God just as prayers that don’t turn out how we hope do not disprove His existence.
Btw if you want to try to be free of confirmation bias, I would encourage you to find the scientific explanation for these types of incidents instead of just a cop out like “coincidence.” By saying it’s just coincidence you are actually engaging in confirmation bias by failing to search for a legitimate scientific explanation/cause that could explain this and instead making an assumption that is based on your worldview which is the epitome of confirmation bias. A person who is terminal with stage 4 cancer and given weeks to live with no chemo/radiation and then suddenly is completely cancer free... how does science explain that? Why did the doctors treating this patient say they’ve never seen anything like it before and declare that it could only be an act of God? Again not saying it proves the existence of God but it’s something you should try to find an answer to scientifically if you reject that there is a God.
snowlover91
Member
Actually, the context of John 9:31 is important to properly understanding the passage. The Pharisees have seen the blind man that Jesus healed and are accusing this man of being a disciple of Jesus. The Pharisees are divided about how Jesus could have performed this miracle, as evidenced below in John 9:16. This man is responding to them about what happened and what he’s saying in verse 31 is that God does not use an unbeliever to perform miracles because the Pharisees thought Jesus was an unbeliever or possibly Satan himself.
John 9:16 says this “Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.”
I think many people get stuck cherry picking verses or passages that in their mind seem to contradict but they don’t dig deeply to understand the context, original wording, etc. Hermeneutics is extremely important when studying Scripture and correctly understanding what it is saying vs twisting it to say something that it doesn’t. I went to college and studied the methods for proper interpretation and study, it’s a huge help and if more people would dig into passages deeply they would be amazed at how much they would learn.
NCSNOW
Member
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Thats not what I just said ,nor does the bible say that. Go back and read it please. God hears the prayer of a sinner repenting of his sins. God does not hear a prayer from someone who hasnt repented of their sins,gave their life to christ. God is holy and no one comes unto the father except through his son Jesus Christ.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
I see you failed to read the part where i mentioned probability; i guess i may of should be more specific saying it was likely a coincidence since you utterly missed what i was implying. Also, just because we don't have an answer for it; definitely doesn't mean one should jump to the conclusion that it was divine intervention. It seems you continuously trap yourself in the teeth of confirmation bias. Science leaves the unknown open-ended and doesn't make conclusions unless there is evidence that supports it.
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snowlover91
Member
So what evidence would you require to confirm that the prayer indeed was answered and God is indeed real in this circumstance described? How could science “prove” this was an act of God?
I am not a fan of the confirmation bias argument when trying to make a case for or against something. There are far stronger ones that could be made to support your position, confirmation bias is one of the weakest from a debate standpoint imo. Having said that, saying it was “likely a coincidence” is assuming something with the worldview in mind that there is no god, a confirmation bias. You have no evidence presented proving that this healing was not the work of God so you assume it must be “coincidence” because that aligns with your worldview. I’ll play devils advocate here and provide you with a link that examines some possible explanations and thoughts on the issue.
snowlover91
Member
Here’s a good article by a scientist worth reading. Some great food for thought. Here’s one excerpt.
“Science is actually very limited in the extent to which it can “prove” a miracle. In fact, I would say scientists and science as a whole cannot prove the presence of a miracle. It can investigate a miracle, and in some cases, find natural explanations for things that people might have thought had no natural explanation. But science is not in a position to be able to decide whether an extraordinary act of God happened.”
orbitermag.com
“Science is actually very limited in the extent to which it can “prove” a miracle. In fact, I would say scientists and science as a whole cannot prove the presence of a miracle. It can investigate a miracle, and in some cases, find natural explanations for things that people might have thought had no natural explanation. But science is not in a position to be able to decide whether an extraordinary act of God happened.”
Can a Scientist Believe in Miracles? | ORBITER | Culture & Belief
"There are miracles which may be inconsistent with the normal laws of physics, but I think there are also miracles that don't violate any of those laws."
orbitermag.com
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
You can’t assume it is, not that hard to understand but whatever. My question is, would you consider other religious books that say the truth deviates far from your bible credible sources?
snowlover91
Member
Answer my question first and then I’ll answer yours ?
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
something that can be tested that simple.
snowlover91
Member
You didn’t answer the question. How do you test if the healing of someone is through some natural process vs an act of God? How can science “prove” the cause of healing and if it can’t determine it, how do you assess whether it is an act of God or some unknown process? A plasma scientist from MIT had this to say regarding the question I’ve proposed. Do you agree or disagree?
“Science can’t explain everything because there are lots of things which don’t possess the characteristics upon which science insists in order to pursue its methods. Science is based on the possibility of obtaining reproducible measurements or observations. But there are many things that we humans think and know that aren’t capable of being explored by reproducible experiments... Science is actually very limited in the extent to which it can “prove” a miracle. In fact, I would say scientists and science as a whole cannot prove the presence of a miracle. It can investigate a miracle, and in some cases, find natural explanations for things that people might have thought had no natural explanation. But science is not in a position to be able to decide whether an extraordinary act of God happened.”
Cad Wedge NC
Member
It is easy to be an atheist when you are young, successful, or when you think you don't need anything. However, it is very difficult to be one when you are met with severe hardship and there is nowhere else to turn and no way out. When you are lying on your death-bed and that little voice deep within you whispers... "What if I'm wrong? What's going to happen to me?". I truly hope everyone understands that we are not guaranteed our next breath and if you die without having accepted Christ, you are going to spend eternity in Hell. These are God's words. Like I said in an earlier post, there are no atheists in Hell. The minute you die, you will know that there is a God. Only one problem, it will be too late.
Whether a prayer is answered or not answered fails to prove either that God exists or that God doesn't exist. It's not a winnable argument in either direction and really should be taken off the table as a point of debate.
As an atheist, you have to believe everything came from nothing. Once you deviate from that position, you can no longer rationally conclude with certainty that God doesn't exist.
Downeastnc
Member
See this is one of the philosophical things that just make me more of a atheist.....the root reason that most people are Christians after you scrape away all the fluff is fear. Fear of eternity in hell, this has been pounded into your head since the day you were born. Most people grow up indoctrinated into whatever religion their parents/family believe, and I remember my grandparents had a poster of demons attacking and killing people as god looked sadly down from above after judgement day and it terrified me as a child. It was in the room we slept in when we stayed the night there....why would a god send someone to hell for eternity even if they are good people simply because they don't believe in him.....its total vanity. I know Christians who literally say half the reason they believe is it is better to be safe than sorry just in case.
Downeastnc
Member
Or that it has always existed....
That's where your are wrong. It's not fear. Its acknowledgement that I have issues that are not holy and that I need Christ to pay for my unholiness and actually transform me into a better person, more Christ like. Yes, many Christians puff theirselves up to appear better than their neighbor so to speak, but we are all totally messed up in desperate need of redemption.
snowlover91
Member
Unfortunately you are right, many people who call themselves Christians view salvation merely as "fire insurance" just in case there truly is a heaven/hell and that's about as far as it goes for them. However, Scripture also makes it clear that true followers of Christ are called to build a genuine relationship with Him, live out biblical values and instead of fearing hell they are to realize the reality of it. The reason a Christian should desire Heaven is NOT to escape hell, as if Heaven is the only alternative, but instead because of their relationship with God they desire Heaven because God is there. There has been much preaching and what I call "shallow Christianity" today where people view Christianity simply as fire insurance and it just is not a biblical idea.
Regarding the question about God sending someone to hell even if they are good people.. the problem with that thought is that the Bible makes it clear that all of mankind is under the curse of sin and depraved and no one is "good." This is why 2 year old children are naturally prone to disobey and as a parent you have to teach them right/wrong. This is why you can have a Hitler or Stalin, wars, crime, etc all examples of the depravity of man. I am not a good person according to the Bible, I am capable of doing good things but that does not make me a good person.
The biblical picture is that we have all broken God's law in some way and God's justice requires a penalty for that sin, just as a criminal who has broken the law of society would need to receive some type of punishment from a judge for his actions. What God offers is for all of us who have broken His law to either receive complete forgiveness or we can continue breaking His law and one day face the consequences for this continued rebellion against God. He gives you, me, and everyone else the freedom to decide how we will respond instead of forcing us against our will.
Downeastnc
Member
So if there was no penalty of hell would you go around murdering and raping people, steal from your neighbors etc? Is your belief in God the only thing that prevents you from doing all those things?
Also I am not messed up nor am I desperately in need of redemption....at all. I don't need to believe in a god to be a good person....I don't need the promise of everlasting life or the threat of eternity in hell to do the right thing.
