Misc All Things Religious

[Downeastnc]

Unfortunately you are right, many people who call themselves Christians view salvation merely as "fire insurance" just in case there truly is a heaven/hell and that's about as far as it goes for them. However, Scripture also makes it clear that true followers of Christ are called to build a genuine relationship with Him, live out biblical values and instead of fearing hell they are to realize the reality of it. The reason a Christian should desire Heaven is NOT to escape hell, as if Heaven is the only alternative, but instead because of their relationship with God they desire Heaven because God is there. There has been much preaching and what I call "shallow Christianity" today where people view Christianity simply as fire insurance and it just is not a biblical idea.

Regarding the question about God sending someone to hell even if they are good people.. the problem with that thought is that the Bible makes it clear that all of mankind is under the curse of sin and depraved and no one is "good." This is why 2 year old children are naturally prone to disobey and as a parent you have to teach them right/wrong. This is why you can have a Hitler or Stalin, wars, crime, etc all examples of the depravity of man. I am not a good person according to the Bible, I am capable of doing good things but that does not make me a good person.

The biblical picture is that we have all broken God's law in some way and God's justice requires a penalty for that sin, just as a criminal who has broken the law of society would need to receive some type of punishment from a judge for his actions. What God offers is for all of us who have broken His law to either receive complete forgiveness or we can continue breaking His law and one day face the consequences for this continued rebellion against God. He gives you, me, and everyone else the freedom to decide how we will respond instead of forcing us against our will.

That is why I know this is all BS, there is no god if there is a god it certainly isn't the Abrahamic one....God is suppose to be perfect yet he creates imperfect beings, then punishes them for being imperfect....unless you worship him and constantly asking him for forgiveness for making us imperfect. Oh and God wont prove he exist you just gotta have faith and believe if you fail to do those things then well off to hell with ya....do you really think a eternity in hell ( eternity for crying out loud ) is a "just" penalty for someone like me.....should I burn in hell forever, do my sins really equal that kind of punishment. Hell does any crime really deserve that kind of punishment.....well I can think of a few but really its ridiculous.

 

[snowlover91]

So if there was no penalty of hell would you go around murdering and raping people, steal from your neighbors etc? Is your belief in God the only thing that prevents you from doing all those things?

Also I am not messed up nor am I desperately in need of redemption....at all. I don't need to believe in a god to be a good person....I don't need the promise of everlasting life or the threat of eternity in hell to do the right thing.

Belief in God is not what prevents someone from doing those things. I think people oftentimes look at what they consider the "big sins" like murder, stealing, etc and say they are a good person if they don't do those things but there are plenty of other things that are sin in God's eyes. Things like lying, cheating, bitterness, refusing to forgive someone, lust, etc. are also all sins and when we take the time to examine ourselves we can all see that to some degree we are guilty of breaking God's law. A person's relationship with God motivates them to pursue growth in their personal life so that they will not give in to sin but live in such a way that their life is more in conformity and obedience to God's law. The problem with judging ourselves as a good person is our view of good may change, be based on the culture and can be completely different for each individual. We are often prone to overlook our own faults, I know I do many times, but when I examine myself by God's law I begin to see that I am truly not good like I used to think I was.

 

[snowlover91]

That is why I know this is all BS, there is no god if there is a god it certainly isn't the Abrahamic one....God is suppose to be perfect yet he creates imperfect beings, then punishes them for being imperfect....unless you worship him and constantly asking him for forgiveness for making us imperfect. Oh and God wont prove he exist you just gotta have faith and believe if you fail to do those things then well off to hell with ya....do you really think a eternity in hell ( eternity for crying out loud ) is a "just" penalty for someone like me.....should I burn in hell forever, do my sins really equal that kind of punishment. Hell does any crime really deserve that kind of punishment.....well I can think of a few but really its ridiculous.

Man was originally created perfect and given a choice to obey God or disobey Him. Man made the choice to disobey and as a result there was a punishment for breaking that law, as you would expect a just Judge to do when someone is guilty of breaking a law. I believe much of what you think about God vs how the Bible describes God are vastly different. I spent years answering and searching for the very questions you are asking and trying to properly understand the God of the Bible as well as other religions and how they view God while also examining the agnostic/atheist viewpoints as well.

I'm not sure what else a person wants God to do to prove He exists. He gave us the Bible and then also sent Jesus and people still didn't believe Him then just as they don't now. I'm convinced if God did in some way reveal Himself today that people would come up with all sorts of explanations to explain it away, such as hallucinations, drug use, aliens, illusions, etc just like they didn't accept Jesus 2,000 years ago. It's not up to me to judge what is a "just" penalty for someone like you or me because I am not God.

If you haven't already, I would encourage you to really search for these answers, try to understand both sides arguing for and against belief in God. Go in depth with the side that opposes what you view. I was raised in church my whole life but went through a time in my teen and college years really searching out the truth, looking at both sides and seeking in depth answers to questions raised by both Christian scholars and atheists/skeptics. The evidence and conclusion I reached ended up leading me to where I am today but it was very helpful for me to really search for answers. I still do it today, there are things I come across in the Bible that sometimes seem to contradict or don't make sense to me and that's where in depth study of what is being said helps me tremendously instead of just making an assumption and saying the Bible can't be true because I don't understand something. I feel like this is what many people run across as an obstacle when trying to understand the Bible and instead of trying to really find good answers/explanations they simply conclude if they don't understand it then it must not be true. Ultimately for me it was a search for truth, whatever direction that led, and I am firmly convinced now after spending a great amount of time and study.

 

[Metwannabe]

I'm not going to jump in this debate, I'm really not smart enough and am just too simple minded.... seriously. I'm a walk by faith Christian and that's just not gonna fly for scientific proof and I get it. Personally I think the most devastating and horrific part of hell is eternal separation from God and knowing it. That emotional turmoil may be as intense as any other physical pain hell may have to offer.

My heart truly breaks for those who reject God's gift of salvation through his Son, Jesus Christ. That hurts, while I may not agree with everyone on everything (far from it lol), I have no desire to see anyone eternally separated from God. Debates are great and we should try to win souls to Christ, but there also comes a time where we plant that seed and then pray.

 

[snowlover91]

I posted a link to this last night but wanted to post a few excerpts as well. This is an interview done with Ian Hutchinson who happens to be a professor in nuclear science and engineering at MIT. He is also an expert in the field of plasma physics and he brings up a few good points on the front of "can science prove God exists."

"Science can’t explain everything because there are lots of things which don’t possess the characteristics upon which science insists in order to pursue its methods. Science is based on the possibility of obtaining reproducible measurements or observations. But there are many things that we humans think and know that aren’t capable of being explored by reproducible experiments. Take human history, for example. The events of history are basically unique events, so you can’t do reproducible experiments to establish, for example, that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon or was assassinated on the steps on the Roman senate.

So, there are realities that science cannot explore and cannot therefore explain. But I don’t think those necessarily lead you to belief in the supernatural. I’m not claiming that God’s action is proved by things that we can’t explain in science. I think it’s actually rather the opposite. I think God’s action in the world is revealed in what we discover about the creation through science. I don’t subscribe to a “God of the gaps” attitude. I find God’s actions and his steadfast love in the things we can explain through science, as well as the things that science really can’t explain.

Having religious faith isn’t disreputable or anti-intellectual simply because it doesn’t depend on scientific proofs. Faith depends on other kinds of evidences and arguments. So I regard the Christian faith as being perfectly reasonable, in that it is an opinion and a commitment with evidence in God’s favor. But most of that evidence is not scientific evidence, because science isn’t really competent to study God. God doesn’t make himself available to us in the way that nature is available to us for repeatable experimentation.

We can take seriously what science is showing us about the natural world. We can rejoice at it. We can find God in it, as our forebears in both science and the Christian faith thought, that God has expressed himself both in the book of his word, which is the Bible, but also in the book of his works, which is nature. Both speak of him and of his creative and redeeming power." Source

 

[Fountainguy97]

That is why I know this is all BS, there is no god if there is a god it certainly isn't the Abrahamic one....God is suppose to be perfect yet he creates imperfect beings, then punishes them for being imperfect....unless you worship him and constantly asking him for forgiveness for making us imperfect. Oh and God wont prove he exist you just gotta have faith and believe if you fail to do those things then well off to hell with ya....do you really think a eternity in hell ( eternity for crying out loud ) is a "just" penalty for someone like me.....should I burn in hell forever, do my sins really equal that kind of punishment. Hell does any crime really deserve that kind of punishment.....well I can think of a few but really its ridiculous.

1st Bold: completely wrong. God created a perfect world. Including two humans who were perfect. Would never die. Etc. It was Lucifer who deceived them. They disobeyed the one rule God had given them and that is the fall of man. That is when the world became imperfect. This is the first example of the free will of man. (Free will to choose and make decisions. Ie. not be robots)


2nd bold: exactly! It takes Faith. Just like you have to have faith in atheism! As you cannot prove without a doubt that there is no God. That means you have faith in Your belief. Or evolution. Or anything that can’t be 100% proven. It is a faith based Salvation. So yes it’s completely logical for God to require faith in Himself.


3rd Bold:
Romans 3:23 KJV
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 KJV
[23] For the wages of sin is death (hell), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


For ALL have sinned. That includes you. Your good works have absolutely nothing to do with your imperfection. You have sinned. Unfortunately that penalty is hell.

But there is good news. Jesus Christ paid that penalty when He died on the cross! You just have to realize that you are a sinner. And that no matter how much good you do it will not change the fact that you have sinned. It will not cancel out. Hell is the penalty. But realize there is hope! Trusting Christ as your Savior will give you the gift of Salvation and an eternity in Heaven.


Romans 10:9-10 KJV
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Anyone with serious questions give me a call. As a minister in a church I feel the need to throw this out. I will not argue with you but I’m for sure here to help! (252) 814-4565

 

[Downeastnc]

Man was originally created perfect and given a choice to obey God or disobey Him. Man made the choice to disobey and as a result there was a punishment for breaking that law, as you would expect a just Judge to do when someone is guilty of breaking a law. I believe much of what you think about God vs how the Bible describes God are vastly different. I spent years answering and searching for the very questions you are asking and trying to properly understand the God of the Bible as well as other religions and how they view God while also examining the agnostic/atheist viewpoints as well.

I'm not sure what else a person wants God to do to prove He exists. He gave us the Bible and then also sent Jesus and people still didn't believe Him then just as they don't now. I'm convinced if God did in some way reveal Himself today that people would come up with all sorts of explanations to explain it away, such as hallucinations, drug use, aliens, illusions, etc just like they didn't accept Jesus 2,000 years ago. It's not up to me to judge what is a "just" penalty for someone like you or me because I am not God.

If you haven't already, I would encourage you to really search for these answers, try to understand both sides arguing for and against belief in God. Go in depth with the side that opposes what you view. I was raised in church my whole life but went through a time in my teen and college years really searching out the truth, looking at both sides and seeking in depth answers to questions raised by both Christian scholars and atheists/skeptics. The evidence and conclusion I reached ended up leading me to where I am today but it was very helpful for me to really search for answers. I still do it today, there are things I come across in the Bible that sometimes seem to contradict or don't make sense to me and that's where in depth study of what is being said helps me tremendously instead of just making an assumption and saying the Bible can't be true because I don't understand something. I feel like this is what many people run across as an obstacle when trying to understand the Bible and instead of trying to really find good answers/explanations they simply conclude if they don't understand it then it must not be true. Ultimately for me it was a search for truth, whatever direction that led, and I am firmly convinced now after spending a great amount of time and study.

I have my answers I found them 30 years ago.....I am as sure there is no god as you are there is, at least in the sense of a Christian god. I am 99.9% atheist with that last little bit begrudgingly acknowledging that there is a slim chance that there is some kind of omnipresent creator that created the universe etc.....but if such a thing exist it is not any of the gods worshiped by humans today in fact it wouldn't even care if we exist or worshipped it and its existence would not mean anything spiritually for us.

Christianity and most other major religions are a self fulfilling belief, the only source for their dogma is the manuscripts their followers use....the fact there are 1,000 of different religions all over the planet shows that the concept of religion is common among humans because it is a invention of humans, thus the wide variety and dogmas based on the evolution of the religion which is based on numerous factors, ironically they all believe their particular religion is the "one true" religion.

People are born into religions, it is society/familial based, you are a Christian because your parents/family are Christians and their family before them etc....if you were born in India you would be a Hindu, if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim....if you were like my son and born to atheist parents then you would be a atheist...people are literally indoctrinated into their religion, you are a Christian not by choice but by circumstance.

 

[Bham 99]

I have my answers I found them 30 years ago.....I am as sure there is no god as you are there is, at least in the sense of a Christian god. I am 99.9% atheist with that last little bit begrudgingly acknowledging that there is a slim chance that there is some kind of omnipresent creator that created the universe etc.....but if such a thing exist it is not any of the gods worshiped by humans today in fact it wouldn't even care if we exist or worshipped it and its existence would not mean anything spiritually for us.

Christianity and most other major religions are a self fulfilling belief, the only source for their dogma is the manuscripts their followers use....the fact there are 1,000 of different religions all over the planet shows that the concept of religion is common among humans because it is a invention of humans, thus the wide variety and dogmas based on the evolution of the religion which is based on numerous factors, ironically they all believe their particular religion is the "one true" religion.

People are born into religions, it is society/familial based, you are a Christian because your parents/family are Christians and their family before them etc....if you were born in India you would be a Hindu, if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim....if you were like my son and born to atheist parents then you would be a atheist...people are literally indoctrinated into their religion, you are a Christian not by choice but by circumstance.

I'm a Christian because I choose to be, because of the evidence of my life being nothing short of miraculous.

 

[Downeastnc]

I'm a Christian because I choose to be, because of the evidence of my life being nothing short of miraculous.

Are your parents and family Christian? That last bit is the self fulfilling part I was talking about....

 

[Bham 99]

Are your parents and family Christian?

They are. I've seen first-hand Christianity is truth.

 

[snowlover91]

I have my answers I found them 30 years ago.....I am as sure there is no god as you are there is, at least in the sense of a Christian god. I am 99.9% atheist with that last little bit begrudgingly acknowledging that there is a slim chance that there is some kind of omnipresent creator that created the universe etc.....but if such a thing exist it is not any of the gods worshiped by humans today in fact it wouldn't even care if we exist or worshipped it and its existence would not mean anything spiritually for us.

Christianity and most other major religions are a self fulfilling belief, the only source for their dogma is the manuscripts their followers use....the fact there are 1,000 of different religions all over the planet shows that the concept of religion is common among humans because it is a invention of humans, thus the wide variety and dogmas based on the evolution of the religion which is based on numerous factors, ironically they all believe their particular religion is the "one true" religion.

People are born into religions, it is society/familial based, you are a Christian because your parents/family are Christians and their family before them etc....if you were born in India you would be a Hindu, if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim....if you were like my son and born to atheist parents then you would be a atheist...people are literally indoctrinated into their religion, you are a Christian not by choice but by circumstance.

No I can tell you I am a Christian because I carefully studied not only Christianity but other religions and atheism/agnostic views and when weighing all the evidence, claims, etc by various religions and atheists I found the claims of Christianity and the evidence for it as the most compelling. People can also go contrary to what they are raised as, I've known people raised Christian who went into other religions or atheism and vice versa as well. There are a number of scientists who are well respected within their fields who testify that what they discover in science is evidence for a Creator vs random chaos. Read the MIT professor's quotes in my previous post to get an idea of how Christian scientists see God and why.

 

[Downeastnc]

They are. I've seen first-hand Christianity is truth.

So ever since you can remember you have been taught that the Christianity is the one true religion right. You entire life is built around that belief. So you attribute things to those beliefs....

 

[Bham 99]

So ever since you can remember you have been taught that the Christianity is the one true religion right. You entire life is built around that belief. So you attribute things to those beliefs....

Nope. I've had personal evidence in my life.

 

[Downeastnc]

No I can tell you I am a Christian because I carefully studied not only Christianity but other religions and atheism/agnostic views and when weighing all the evidence, claims, etc by various religions and atheists I found the claims of Christianity and the evidence for it as the most compelling. People can also go contrary to what they are raised as, I've known people raised Christian who went into other religions or atheism and vice versa as well. There are a number of scientists who are well respected within their fields who testify that what they discover in science is evidence for a Creator vs random chaos. Read the MIT professor's quotes in my previous post to get an idea of how Christian scientists see God and why.

I am sure you did, but your base belief structure is strongly Christian, and its hard to buck that deeply rooted belief structure I know because I did it. Sure some people can go contrary to what they raised but the vast majority of those people are people going atheist contrary to how they were raised.

 

[Downeastnc]

Nope. I've had personal evidence in my life.

I am sure you believe that whatever those experiences were they were proof that god is real, the reason you believe that however is that your were taught to believe that. If you had been born to nomadic Bedouin's your beliefs would be different and the experiences you had would be seen in a different light and have different meanings. That's why religion is self fulfilling you find what you are looking for because you already believe it is there. You have these beliefs because you were taught them since birth.

 

[Metwannabe]

I have my answers I found them 30 years ago.....I am as sure there is no god as you are there is, at least in the sense of a Christian god. I am 99.9% atheist with that last little bit begrudgingly acknowledging that there is a slim chance that there is some kind of omnipresent creator that created the universe etc.....but if such a thing exist it is not any of the gods worshiped by humans today in fact it wouldn't even care if we exist or worshipped it and its existence would not mean anything spiritually for us.

Christianity and most other major religions are a self fulfilling belief, the only source for their dogma is the manuscripts their followers use....the fact there are 1,000 of different religions all over the planet shows that the concept of religion is common among humans because it is a invention of humans, thus the wide variety and dogmas based on the evolution of the religion which is based on numerous factors, ironically they all believe their particular religion is the "one true" religion.

People are born into religions, it is society/familial based, you are a Christian because your parents/family are Christians and their family before them etc....if you were born in India you would be a Hindu, if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim....if you were like my son and born to atheist parents then you would be a atheist...people are literally indoctrinated into their religion, you are a Christian not by choice but by circumstance.

That's simply not true.... will the majority, probably, but there are thousands from those countries that have chosen Christianity. There are underground Christian churches all over the world who face persecution by death every single day and they are full, full of locals who have found Christ and left their home/family/country religion. In fact, some of those Churches are probably more on fire for God then the churches here but that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[snowlover91]

I am sure you did, but your base belief structure is strongly Christian, and its hard to buck that deeply rooted belief structure I know because I did it. Sure some people can go contrary to what they raised but the vast majority of those people are people going atheist contrary to how they were raised.

I just don't think that's a good argument to use. Sure some people may be Christians because of how they are raised but I see plenty who are the exact opposite of how they are raised. Most of the time it's when they are in college or their 20s/30s that they begin to really form their belief that will stick with them for life. I've also known a good number of people with 0 church background who when presented with the evidence went from being an atheist to a Christian... it just isn't a good argument to use for why someone is what they are because there are so many other factors at work in each person's life and ultimately that person has to decide for themselves what they will accept and reject.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the number of scientists who say that the creation and field of work they are in gives evidence to God, including ones who were atheists with little to no church background and converted to Christianity because of what they saw. Why do you reject their assertion of evidence for God in creation?

 

[Downeastnc]

I just don't think that's a good argument to use. Sure some people may be Christians because of how they are raised but I see plenty who are the exact opposite of how they are raised. Most of the time it's when they are in college or their 20s/30s that they begin to really form their belief that will stick with them for life. I've also known a good number of people with 0 church background who when presented with the evidence went from being an atheist to a Christian... it just isn't a good argument to use for why someone is what they are because there are so many other factors at work in each person's life and ultimately that person has to decide for themselves what they will accept and reject.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the number of scientists who say that the creation and field of work they are in gives evidence to God, including ones who were atheists and converted to Christianity because of what they saw. Why do you reject their assertion of evidence for God in creation?

I reject it because there is no god....I have seen videos like those numerous times, being smart doesn't mean you cant or even shouldn't believe in god. I understand why people need a god in their life, I know plenty of people who are intellectually brilliant that also believe in god

However as a rule strictly believing the bible and science don't mix, it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to accept stuff from the bible as factually true and also believe in science.....when I look at science I don't see god, I see proof there is no god. Stuff like the literal dozens of different species of Hominids.....none of that stuff really jives with the bible....there have been dozens of intelligent species of hominids over the last 2 million years, some even were as smart as homo sapiens....heck Neanderthals were dominate for a long time this is excepted science, but Christians will say they were just deformed modern humans or other such excuses when the science and DNA show that is patently false. Its stuff like that that bothers me, when proof of things that contradict the bible come along rather than embracing it and accepting it a lot of Christian scientist try to explain it away or change it to make it fit their pre conceived beliefs.

 

[EastAtlwx]

I fall more into line with agnostic thinking. I'm open to the possibility of a god existing but i would say more so to some higher fundamental truth (like a god; but far from the one of Abrahamic faiths). I despise Christians who think their god is without a doubt 100% truth which i find an issue with because its intellectually dishonest.

 

[snowlover91]

I reject it because there is no god....I have seen videos like those numerous times, being smart doesn't mean you cant or even shouldn't believe in god. I understand why people need a god in their life, I know plenty of people who are intellectually brilliant that also believe in god

However as a rule strictly believing the bible and science don't mix, it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to accept stuff from the bible as factually true and also believe in science.....when I look at science I don't see god, I see proof there is no god. Stuff like the literal dozens of different species of Hominids.....none of that stuff really jives with the bible....there have been dozens of intelligent species of hominids over the last 2 million years, some even were as smart as homo sapiens....heck Neanderthals were dominate for a long time this is excepted science, but Christians will say they were just deformed modern humans or other such excuses when the science and DNA show that is patently false. Its stuff like that that bothers me, when proof of things that contradict the bible come along rather than embracing it and accepting it a lot of Christian scientist try to explain it away or change it to make it fit their pre conceived beliefs.

I would encourage you regarding things like the Neanderthals you mentioned to read some resources like this one from a scientific perspective and see what you think. Regardless, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on things.