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Shaggy said:
See I think hillary and trump were treated the same. Her email investigation ended with evidence of her doing it but they found the intent or conspiracy to commit the crimes were lacking. I didnt buy that but that's what the investigators found.

Now if you read the Mueller report without bias it clearly and plainly says collusion occured but that it did not rise to a conspiracy level. They know Russia meddles and they know trump affiliates accepted and sought to benefit from it. In essence both investigations proved what happened but that what happened simply didnt meet or rise to the level of a crime.
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One is a crime, the other sleazy politics.

The whole we need to find intent is the stupidest cop out ever which doesn't apply to anyone but the protected class.

Shaggy said:
All legit issues and concerns. The Republicans could have used their majority in the house to have investigations.....they did for years. Why didn't they ring AOI against Obama, holder, Clinton?

Those poeple not being held accountable was at the fault of republicans for not going the distance with the inquiries.
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Mostly because as dumb and spineless as the GOP can be, they know by experience how easily it can backfire when you try to remove who the public elected. The Dems are about to learn that lesson, unless it is their plan to get Trump re-elected.
 
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Arcc said:
One is a crime, the other sleazy politics.

The whole we need to find intent is the stupidest cop out ever which doesn't apply to anyone but the protected class.



Mostly because as dumb and spineless as the GOP can be, they know by experience how easily it can backfire when you try to remove who the public elected. The Dems are about to learn that lesson, unless it is their plan to get Trump re-elected.
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I dunno the Constitution is pretty clear about not allowing for foreign interference in our election process. This goes double for our president to actually seek out that foreign assistance, it goes triple when that president withholds access to and aid from the US to try to force that country to provide that assistance.....some of you are seriously underplaying the seriousness of what Trump was doing.

Then there is the Rudy/Parnas/Fruman/Firtash angle that still has to play out. There is some evidence that Parnas and Fruman funneled money from Firtash to Trumps and other GOP campaigns and to Rudy, and that Trump was lobbied to remove the former Ukraine ambassador by these men and those payments since she did not want to play ball with many number of things those people wanted.
 
Downeastnc said:
I dunno the Constitution is pretty clear about not allowing for foreign interference in our election process. This goes double for our president to actually seek out that foreign assistance, it goes triple when that president withholds access to and aid from the US to try to force that country to provide that assistance.....some of you are seriously underplaying the seriousness of what Trump was doing.

Then there is the Rudy/Parnas/Fruman/Firtash angle that still has to play out. There is some evidence that Parnas and Fruman funneled money from Firtash to Trumps and other GOP campaigns and to Rudy, and that Trump was lobbied to remove the former Ukraine ambassador by these men and those payments since she did not want to play ball with many number of things those people wanted.
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I don't think we are underplaying anything, more so many of us think that y'all are over playing something that happens all the time and how much people actually care about it.
 
Meanwhile... the national debt continues to balloon out of control, government is expanding at record levels (trying to consume/control our every step of life), the borders aren't secure, ANTIFA is still on the rampage, the PC social rage mobs are as active as ever (new #metoo friendly "Baby It's Cold Outside" song incoming and changes to the ABC song, just to name a couple) all while we bat the political corruptness birdie back and forth across the partisan net. Has any worthy legislation been passed recently? All that goes on in Washington is campaigning or fighting to oust your political opponent. Time for We The People to be The People again.
 
Shaggy said:
Nunes is a trump puppet who has no more credibility than Schiff does.
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Not the point. The GOP’s plan right or wrong is to be quiet and act like the Dems are railroading them in this committee to garner public support. The Dems keep leaking everything they have and when they rehash it in the senate the public will not care. That is when the GOP will go on the offensive.
 
metwannabe said:
Meanwhile... the national debt continues to balloon out of control, government is expanding at record levels (trying to consume/control our every step of life), the borders aren't secure, ANTIFA is still on the rampage, the PC social rage mobs are as active as ever (new #metoo friendly "Baby It's Cold Outside" song incoming and changes to the ABC song, just to name a couple) all while we bat the political corruptness birdie back and forth across the partisan net. Has any worthy legislation been passed recently? All that goes on in Washington is campaigning or fighting to oust your political opponent. Time for We The People to be The People again.
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I agree with you. In my opinion this country is too far gone in regards to us all coming together for the "common good". Someone is electing these people over and over again and I don't see why it will stop. The big question is WHY? Are they really representative of the people voting for them? How does "The Squad" get elected (serious question)? If these people are any indication of the direction of the country, I want nothing to do with them or the people that voted for them. People tend to stick to and take care of their pack. I am the first to say this "shouldn't be" what America stands for but if that's the way the country is headed, I can assure you I can and will take care of my pack first and foremost. Others who are opposite of my political ideology may feel the same way, I don't know. I spent the end of my 20's, all of my 30's and some of my 40's in the middle east so I guess I tend to have a skewed view of what I was coming home to.......
 
Avalanche said:
Globalism vs US exceptionalism. Deep State/Media vs American citizens and freedom. We have people in every facet of US government that hate the US, and any foreign entity that is our ally. People like the "squad" only like the US if they can transform it into something that eliminates the US constitution.
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This post is so...what even are you talking about. So because someone doesn't support Trump, they aren't a citizen and don't like freedom? Elected House Representatives want to "eliminate the US constitution?"
I mean, do you actually believe that???
 
Avalanche said:
For me, as an ordinary citizen, I have a "get out of there alive" mantra when I get pulled by law enforcement. It is yes sir, yes mam, have a good day policy for me. They have weaponry, I don't. They have friends with weaponry, I don't. They could also eliminate me without any evidence, if they saw fit. I don't mess around with the law. Take the ticket and go home.
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Its just insane to me that as a society and a nation we allow this to go on. The standard to which we hold our LEO for their actions seems absurdly low.
 
If the reports are true that Vindman stated the "transcript" trump released is not a complete version thats gonna be a big deal. I know many people whom have stated the lack of a direct QPQ on the call is all they need to exonerate trump. If it turns out trumps team manipulated the transcript to omit certain things as vindman said then trump is going to have real trouble keeping moderates on his side.
 
crecre9 said:
Its just insane to me that as a society and a nation we allow this to go on. The standard to which we hold our LEO for their actions seems absurdly low.
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Allow what to go on? Have you ever been faced with having to make the split second decisions some of these men and women have to make in the line of duty? Its a very difficult thing to train for and "routine stops" can turn into a split second life or death decision at the flip of a dime. This has to be at the forefront of a LEO's mindset at all times. Its not quite the same standard that others face at work. The training officers get has improved greatly (thanks in part to vets) but the attitude and perception of the individuals most likely to be in conflict with the police has gotten far worse......THAT is what needs to change
 
Shaggy said:
If the reports are true that Vindman stated the "transcript" trump released is not a complete version thats gonna be a big deal. I know many people whom have stated the lack of a direct QPQ on the call is all they need to exonerate trump. If it turns out trumps team manipulated the transcript to omit certain things as vindman said then trump is going to have real trouble keeping moderates on his side.
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If whomever overheard this call doesn't come forward to be questioned and viewed by the public, his or her's credibility is bunk with the public. Sure it's easy to omit things. Its easy to say you heard something you didn't really hear as well......
 
Sandbar said:
Allow what to go on? Have you ever been faced with having to make the split second decisions some of these men and women have to make in the line of duty? Its a very difficult thing to train for and "routine stops" can turn into a split second life or death decision at the flip of a dime. This has to be at the forefront of a LEO's mindset at all times. Its not quite the same standard that others face at work. The training officers get has improved greatly (thanks in part to vets) but the attitude and perception of the individuals most likely to be in conflict with the police has gotten far worse......THAT is what needs to change
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I have indeed faced such decisions, but if I had not that would not invalidate my opinion. We hold troops in war zones and civilians at home to a higher standard regarding the taking of life, or at least that is what it appears to be.
 
Sandbar said:
If whomever overheard this call doesn't come forward to be questioned and viewed by the public, his or her's credibility is bunk with the public. Sure it's easy to omit things. Its easy to say you heard something you didn't really hear as well......
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He has come forward and be said he tried 3 times to get them to make sure what he heard was on the transcript to no avail. If trump omitted the more damning aspects of the call then it is/should be really bad for trump.
 
crecre9 said:
I have indeed faced such decisions, but if I had not that would not invalidate my opinion. We hold troops in war zones and civilians at home to a higher standard regarding the taking of life, or at least that is what it appears to be.
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I fully understand what you are saying but how many times is someone killed by a LEO and not held accountable? Of course it happens but most of the time the LEO makes the correct decision and most of the time our LEO's are held accountable when they are found to have been negligent in the line of duty. When you see city blocks burned to the ground over an unarmed black man being shot, the problem isn't the officer involved. This isn't an epidemic. More people lose their lives to doctor malpractice than a confrontation with a police officer. Does it make news headlines? Are there marches and protest? Sure you can sue the doctor but the victim doesn't always win......

My point isn't that it doesn't happen, my point is that this isn't a national crisis that its being made out to be.
 
Shaggy said:
He has come forward and be said he tried 3 times to get them to make sure what he heard was on the transcript to no avail. If trump omitted the more damning aspects of the call then it is/should be really bad for trump.
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Has he or she come forward to the public to be questioned? In the basement huddled up with Democrats who have been trying to overturn the President being duly elected since Day 1 doesn't hold much water in my opinion. Until I see that, this is just another Democrat scam and I think most people feel that way......could be wrong but I doubt it
 
Shaggy said:
If the reports are true that Vindman stated the "transcript" trump released is not a complete version thats gonna be a big deal. I know many people whom have stated the lack of a direct QPQ on the call is all they need to exonerate trump. If it turns out trumps team manipulated the transcript to omit certain things as vindman said then trump is going to have real trouble keeping moderates on his side.
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I doubt there is much to this, CNN is reporting the parts left out are minor. If that is if all they are reporting concerning that aspect, there isn’t anything there.
 
Sandbar said:
Has he or she come forward to the public to be questioned? In the basement huddled up with Democrats who have been trying to overturn the President being duly elected since Day 1 doesn't hold much water in my opinion. Until I see that, this is just another Democrat scam and I think most people feel that way......could be wrong but I doubt it
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Publically or not he testified UNDER OATH with threat of perjury. What he said is that key parts specifically asking about the bidens was edited out.

Yall dissed the WB as someone without firsthand knowledge. Now someone with that knowledge comes forward and yall want to dismiss it.

So a man with threat of perjury tells his story trump refuses and tries to block everyone he can from testifying.
 
Shaggy said:
Publically or not he testified UNDER OATH with threat of perjury. What he said is that key parts specifically asking about the bidens was edited out.

Yall dissed the WB as someone without firsthand knowledge. Now someone with that knowledge comes forward and yall want to dismiss it.

So a man with threat of perjury tells his story trump refuses and tries to block everyone he can from testifying.
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Until this WB is questioned UNDER OATH by the President's defense team, I fully dismiss it without question. We have been here done that the last 3 years with the Democrat party. Everywhere from Trump to Kavanaugh so color me as not impressed
 
Sandbar said:
Until this WB is questioned UNDER OATH by the President's defense team, I fully dismiss it without question. We have been here done that the last 3 years with the Democrat party. Everywhere from Trump to Kavanaugh so color me as not impressed
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Come on now, everything that the report the WB turned in has been corroborated several times over now by numerous people working in the White House and State Dept.....

The politics of the WB whatever they are does not matter one bit, all that matters is the truth....so far everything in that statement they released has proven out to be true.....Trump did ask the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden we have the transcript and Trump has admitted, and we have learned that many WH officials including people like Bolton, Hill, Vindman etc all had issue with the call, and with Rudy doing whatever it is that Rudy was doing.....pretending this is not a legit and very real problem is not going to change the reality of the situation as it stands now.
 
Downeastnc said:
Come on now, everything that the report the WB turned in has been corroborated several times over now by numerous people working in the White House and State Dept.....

The politics of the WB whatever they are does not matter one bit, all that matters is the truth....so far everything in that statement they released has proven out to be true.....Trump did ask the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden we have the transcript and Trump has admitted, and we have learned that many WH officials including people like Bolton, Hill, Vindman etc all had issue with the call, and with Rudy doing whatever it is that Rudy was doing.....pretending this is not a legit and very real problem is not going to change the reality of the situation as it stands now.
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This is a real easy issue to get to the bottom of. Vote to impeach, move it to the Senate and lets see what happens from there. Until they actually do that, this is just another round of nonsense plain and simple, just like the Mueller Report.
 
Sandbar said:
This is a real easy issue to get to the bottom of. Vote to impeach, move it to the Senate and lets see what happens from there. Until they actually do that, this is just another round of nonsense plain and simple, just like the Mueller Report.
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I agree it is easy, and they are getting to the bottom of it.....after the vote tomorrow we will see several weeks of open door hearings in front of full panels.....might even see folks like Bolton, Sondland, Taylor etc in public hearings...
 
Sandbar said:
This is a real easy issue to get to the bottom of. Vote to impeach, move it to the Senate and lets see what happens from there. Until they actually do that, this is just another round of nonsense plain and simple, just like the Mueller Report.
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The fact Trump moved the call to a private server, and that he "may" have altered or omitted parts of the call, and that he has attempted to thwart anyone from testifying and attacking anyone who has sure doesn't sound like the actions of an innocent man.

The attempts to uncover a protected WB is absurd and the WB has the right to remain protected. All he did was push the snowball off the roof. The evidence has been piling on and corroborated all along the way.

Now after a month of complaining the process was unethical they get a vote but now the reps say its too late. Now after a month of discrediting the secondhand knowledge of the WB they get firsthand knowledge and they dismiss him or deflect from his testimony.

Basically the only thing any trumpets want to hear is that he is 100% innocent and anything less than that is just more Soros backed secret agents trying a coup on the president.

Its borderline lunacy.
 
Shaggy said:
The fact Trump moved the call to a private server, and that he "may" have altered or omitted parts of the call, and that he has attempted to thwart anyone from testifying and attacking anyone who has sure doesn't sound like the actions of an innocent man.

The attempts to uncover a protected WB is absurd and the WB has the right to remain protected. All he did was push the snowball off the roof. The evidence has been piling on and corroborated all along the way.

Now after a month of complaining the process was unethical they get a vote but now the reps say its too late. Now after a month of discrediting the secondhand knowledge of the WB they get firsthand knowledge and they dismiss him or deflect from his testimony.

Basically the only thing any trumpets want to hear is that he is 100% innocent and anything less than that is just more Soros backed secret agents trying a coup on the president.

Its borderline lunacy.
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Either way lets get it done and over with. Im tired of listening to Trump haters suggesting to Trump supporters that we are basically fools for not being concerned about this entire fiasco. Not the first rodeo with Trump so it is what it is.
 
Shaggy said:
The fact Trump moved the call to a private server, and that he "may" have altered or omitted parts of the call, and that he has attempted to thwart anyone from testifying and attacking anyone who has sure doesn't sound like the actions of an innocent man.

The attempts to uncover a protected WB is absurd and the WB has the right to remain protected. All he did was push the snowball off the roof. The evidence has been piling on and corroborated all along the way.

Now after a month of complaining the process was unethical they get a vote but now the reps say its too late. Now after a month of discrediting the secondhand knowledge of the WB they get firsthand knowledge and they dismiss him or deflect from his testimony.

Basically the only thing any trumpets want to hear is that he is 100% innocent and anything less than that is just more Soros backed secret agents trying a coup on the president.

Its borderline lunacy.
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I’m curious where the “may” have omitted comes from. Like I said earlier the only thing CNN states the guy wanted added to the transcript was that Trump mentioned Biden’s tape which isn’t much different than when Trump stated Biden was publicly boasting about it and the fact that the specifically mentioned Burisma when the transcript said “company”.

Trump wanting the name of the WB and being difficult is just Trump being Trump. Innocent or guilty I would probably do the same with the Democrats hunting for anything.
 
Sandbar said:
Either way lets get it done and over with. Im tired of listening to Trump haters suggesting to Trump supporters that we are basically fools for not being concerned about this entire fiasco. Not the first rodeo with Trump so it is what it is.
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It's not a fiasco. Its our president potentially asking foreign governments to investigate his political rivals.
 
Arcc said:
I’m curious where the “may” have omitted comes from. Like I said earlier the only thing CNN states the guy wanted added to the transcript was that Trump mentioned Biden’s tape which isn’t much different than when Trump stated Biden was publicly boasting about it and the fact that the specifically mentioned Burisma when the transcript said “company”.

Trump wanting the name of the WB and being difficult is just Trump being Trump. Innocent or guilty I would probably do the same with the Democrats hunting for anything.
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Specificity matters here. Company= burisma or leaving out bidens "tape" ties this directly to his biggest political rival versus a mere mention of general corruption. It's a major distinction actually in terms of violations.
 
Sandbar said:
Either way lets get it done and over with. Im tired of listening to Trump haters suggesting to Trump supporters that we are basically fools for not being concerned about this entire fiasco. Not the first rodeo with Trump so it is what it is.
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Fool is a strong word, I do think that there is a bit of cognitive dissonance by Trumpers, you see this a lot with the whole "well Obama and Hillary got away with stuff so should Trump" angle.....then again most of you wont care even if it is proven that Trump did all of this stuff, the problem with that is if this were Hillary and this was all proven you all would be demanding impeachment and prison etc.....that's the part I don't understand. I wish Trump would act in a way that allowed me to support him, but he doesn't and at this point I know what kind of man he is and he does not deserve to be president or the dog pound much less the USA....
 
Shaggy said:
Specificity matters here. Company= burisma or leaving out bidens "tape" ties this directly to his biggest political rival versus a mere mention of general corruption. It's a major distinction actually in terms of violations.
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Huh? How does mention Bidens tape vs saying Biden was publicly boasting about it mean a thing? No one questioned on either side what or who Trump was talking about. That wasn’t hidden at all.

The whole impeachment issue is the withholding of aid for political purpose not minor word differences in the transcript. Secondly that doesn’t imply anything else was hidden in the transcript.
 
Arcc said:
Huh? How does mention Bidens tape vs saying Biden was publicly boasting about it mean a thing? No one questioned on either side what or who Trump was talking about. That wasn’t hidden at all.

The whole impeachment issue is the withholding of aid for political purpose not minor word differences in the transcript. Secondly that doesn’t imply anything else was hidden in the transcript.
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Why change anything or hide this perfect call if it was perfect?
 
Sandbar said:
Either way lets get it done and over with. Im tired of listening to Trump haters suggesting to Trump supporters that we are basically fools for not being concerned about this entire fiasco. Not the first rodeo with Trump so it is what it is.
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Fool isn't the word I would use. I know some of the guys I am debating here personally and they certainly aren't fools by any means.

I see current Trumpers as I did the obamabots. To them any investigation was fake or based on racism. Now its a coup attempt by Soros backed liberals. The problem is the evidence was/is there for both Obama and Trump to have serious doubts about their ethicalness. Just because the people that supported Obama thought everything was racist it WASN'T and despite evidence of Trump doing unethical things its being ignored the same way as it was under Obama.

It takes people sticking their head in the sand to make the claims nothing is/has/did happen with these last 2 presidents. Thats what is sad to me.
 
Shaggy said:
Fool isn't the word I would use. I know some of the guys I am debating here personally and they certainly aren't fools by any means.

I see current Trumpers as I did the obamabots. To them any investigation was fake or based on racism. Now its a coup attempt by Soros backed liberals. The problem is the evidence was/is there for both Obama and Trump to have serious doubts about their ethicalness. Just because the people that supported Obama thought everything was racist it WASN'T and despite evidence of Trump doing unethical things its being ignored the same way as it was under Obama.

It takes people sticking their head in the sand to make the claims nothing is/has/did happen with these last 2 presidents. Thats what is sad to me.
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Interesting considering a number of us aren’t Trumpers. It’s more just funny how the the politicians who supported Obama and his ways are being taken as gospel because it’s against Trump by those who don’t like Trump even if it takes spinning to believe it.

I wouldn’t surprise if Trump did withhold aid for favors, but nothing is proven just yet.
 
Arcc said:
Because if Trump can be obstinate he will? Because the other party would impeach him for farting in public?
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Right so imagine what they are going to do with real red meat illegal and unethical actions Trump is serving up on a silver platter.....
 
Arcc said:
Interesting considering a number of us aren’t Trumpers. It’s more just funny how the the politicians who supported Obama and his ways are being taken as gospel because it’s against Trump by those who don’t like Trump even if it takes spinning to believe it.

I wouldn’t surprise if Trump did withhold aid for favors, but nothing is proven just yet.
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The way the 2 sides both officially elected people and the supporters have switched positions is twilight zone worthy.
 
I'm glad this thread is active. It's actually really nice to have a place to discuss politics in a civilized and respectful manner. We're all people and brothers in humanity. We share similar passions while having diverse opinions. And at the end of the day, remembering that and having respect for each other reflects character. Thank you all for that.
 
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