EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
A simple yes is not an answer... you have to support your argument. Vernon McGee clearly isn’t thinking or has no counter-argument.
-
Hello, please take a minute to check out our awesome content, contributed by the wonderful members of our community. We hope you'll add your own thoughts and opinions by making a free account!
Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
- Start date
- Status
snowlover91
Member
Jesus did this about 2,000 years ago, people doubted him then and nailed him to a cross.
snowlover91
Member
What specific problem are you referencing with these two views? Do you consider them to be exclusive, ie God either predestines OR man has free will but both cannot be true/compatible?
No my argument and his as well is both can be true. Both are clearly noted as true in scripture. God can make a person and know the eventual outcome yet give us free will. How it all works, I don’t know and you can search and argue and hunt and you still won’t know.
Dare we bring up the book of Exodus?
snowlover91
Member
I'm convinced that if Jesus did appear today, people would ascribe it to hallucinations, magic, illusions, drugs, etc. and still refuse to believe.
That or Jesus is actually an alien.
NCSNOW
Member
If there is No God, then there is no eternal consuquence to living life like the devil so to speak. So why follow laws, try to live morally, be a good community citizen,husband,wife,father,mother, friend, co worker etc. Whats the point. A person only has 72.5 years on average. Heck beat the system, take all you can and live life for yourself, to the fullest . You dont have to please God if he doesnt exist. Why waste time pleasing other people,family members,friends. They are just bones walking around with flesh attached. Who cares what they think,feel. Once your dead thats it. You want be feeling anything,guilty, remorse. This is just nature.
If theres a God, then thats means we have a soul. How else could we even have a thing like a conscience? Lions,fish,apes,birds etc, they dont have a conscience? Wonder why human beings are the only thing on earth that has one? How did that happen?
If theres a God, then thats means we have a soul. How else could we even have a thing like a conscience? Lions,fish,apes,birds etc, they dont have a conscience? Wonder why human beings are the only thing on earth that has one? How did that happen?
NCSNOW
Member
I often ask a question if there is no God, we arent here by creation instead evolution. Why or how can anyone feel guilty if they lie,steal,cheat,murder,dont give love back to anyone else. How does evolution explain this?
Downeastnc
Member
Because life is what you make of it....simple as that. I don't need to fear punishment from a god to do the right thing or live a good life. I please people because it makes me feel good and it again is the right thing to do.
I would argue that man is not the only creatures on earth with a "conscience" there is a lot of science that suggest otherwise, they may not have it to the level we do but they are self aware and experience feelings...
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
There’s the confirmation bias... can’t use scripture as your evidence when I don’t consider it as an accurate source.
Is it wrong for me to torture babies? Yes or no.
Exactly right
I believe in the Big Guy. However, I also believe that a man could and should easily feel guilty for especially murdering someone because of common decency and common sense. Why would they need to believe in the Almighty to feel that it is wrong to murder a fellow human being? That view is downright shocking to be honest. Is that truly how you feel? Seriously?
snowlover91
Member
I don't understand what you are driving at. You want a person to explain what God says in Scripture about free will vs predestination without using Scripture because you don't consider Scripture accurate. I would argue that you are displaying confirmation bias by saying you refuse to accept Scripture as accurate because it aligns with your belief that Scripture is flawed. I would also add that the "confirmation bias" argument is an exceedingly poor one to use. I would rather develop an argument on various assertions from Scripture and go from there vs a weak heuristic process like confirmation bias. Highlighted in bold below is what I would argue has happened with you viewing Scripture as an inaccurate source of data.
"Confirmation bias is one of the less-helpful heuristics which exists as a result. The information that we interpret is influenced by existing beliefs, meaning we are more likely to recall it. As a consequence, we tend to see more evidence that enforces our worldview. Confirmatory data is taken seriously, while disconfirming data is treated with skepticism. Our general assimilation of information is subject to deep bias." Source
snowlover91
Member
Why is it that many people have seemingly contradicting views on murder, for example? Some seem to enjoy it (serial killers) and others show no remorse for their actions. Why don't these people have the same "decency" and common sense that others who believe it is wrong do? Are some humans simply better than others and morally superior? What if one culture deems murder perfectly acceptable and another says it is wrong, which culture is right and on what basis are they right if the Bible and the moral law it establishes is disregarded?
WEATHERBOYROY
Member
Sounds to me like you think you found a chink in the armor of Christianity? LOL...Nothing like trying to make your enemy fight among themselves! With all the evidence we have to support the Bible and the Truths of the Bible, It takes more BLIND Faith to be a spiritualist.....give me a break!
Then you have no argument. No sense in arguing something out of a book you can’t cite.
I agree. If you believe murder is wrong and doing good to your fellow man is right that is good. That said at least in this nation and most of Europe that view came from a Judeo/Christian background somewhere in the past. So to say you didn’t need God to show you that may not be exactly true.
snowlover91
Member
Yep, it's logically contradictory to say "explain to me why this book says this but don't use the book that contains the quote to answer the question." That would be like asking someone to explain what Shakespeare means in a certain statement but then giving them the stipulation that you can't use anything he wrote because you don't consider it accurate or reliable. It's utter nonsense.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
Clearly not understanding the flaw but anyways I’m out of here. Peace.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
but Shakespeare and his work is undeniably real. It likes if i tried to prove a fairy tell is real just because a book says it is without providing tangible evidence for it. Anybody could make a book, state a claim; and use it as proof; but if there is no real evidence or something that's tries to prove it rather than stating it as fact; its automatically an inaccurate source to me; the likelihood of said claim to be right is probably small & thus shouldn't just be assumed as factually correct which lies in the realm of confirmation bias.
You didn’t use the argument that you just dont believe it or think the Bible is false. Clearly you do believe that way and that is your business.
Your original argument was on biblical terms and doctrine. You cannot debate or discuss a term or statement in something if you remove the object that cites it. Remove the Bible as the source and predestination and free will are just words that cannot be debated beyond what they mean in our world.
EastAtlwx
Meteorologist
No. I wanted to hear opinions from Christians on the topic I didn’t specify further than that.
Yes and Christians are gonna give their understandings of the scripture where their belief originated from and where these terms are found. If you remove that base, there is no reason for asking. There is no other reason to talk about these terms because without the belief in a higher being there is no such thing as predestination and it couldn’t exist to be argued for or against.
snowlover91
Member
You wanted opinions about how mans free will and predestination operates in relation to God but don’t want people to use the Bible to answer the question? If you mean mans free will and predestination in general absent a God that’s an entirely different type of debate.
I think a greater, underlying point is that most of us can acknowledge that most humans consider it wrong to murder, at least to some extent. Most humans operate within a set of common moral boundaries that allows us to exist together. I'm not talking about warring tribes or the deranged individual. But we can usually agree on some basic moral principles. Number 1, where does that come from? And number 2, if there isn't anything that gives rise to a true right and a true wrong, then what gives anyone the right to impose their sense of right and wrong upon another?
You can't adhere to basic cultural morals/laws/rules, claiming that there is no universal source which defines right and wrong, and then go on to condemn anyone for their behavior, whatever it is. You must wholeheartedly support the view that everyone should be allowed to behave however they want and do whatever they want, no matter how it affects anyone else. You must hold this view, if there is no universal definition of right and wrong -- no common moral compass that guides mankind.
The only other alternative is that you must accept that there is a source of absolute right and wrong, at least on some level. And the problem for atheists is that this inherently means that something greater than mankind exists that gives rise to this.
snowlover91
Member
The Bible is undeniably real too, it’s simply a matter of whether one believes the claims made in it. Those are 2 separate arguments. One can see the reality of both the Bible and what Shakespeare wrote but debate the ideas/claims each one makes which are two separate areas of argument.
Shaggy
Member
Theres a reason everything proving god is real is vague. It's like all the grainy horrible photos of bigfoot. Nothing concrete but plenty of speculation.
God is never there when it boils down to certain things. Prayer is a good example. No matter how many times,hard, or seriously one prays about certain things the prayers will NEVER be answered and the reason is because these outcomes are always going to be what they are and are not changeable even for a supposed god.
God is never there when it boils down to certain things. Prayer is a good example. No matter how many times,hard, or seriously one prays about certain things the prayers will NEVER be answered and the reason is because these outcomes are always going to be what they are and are not changeable even for a supposed god.
snowlover91
Member
I think prayer is often misunderstood and sometimes preached the wrong way as well within the church. God always does answer prayer but it may not necessarily be the way you or I hoped it would turn out. That doesn't prove that God does or does not exist, it means that sometimes what we think should/should not happen may not be a part of God's plan and so He says no. It's like if my 2 year old son asks me for chocolate for supper. He knows chocolate is good, he loves it and will beg me in all sorts of ways for it but with the greater amount of knowledge I have than him I tell him no because at that time he needs food that will meet his nutritional needs instead of his sweet tooth. What my son thinks is best for him and what I consider best for him may at times be completely different and also based on how he asks for something as well. It's not a perfect example but I consider myself as the 2 year old approaching God in prayer, praying and asking for what I believe would be best but also realizing that I do not have the same level of knowledge/wisdom that God does. If God answers no I then pray for God's help to handle the situation in the best possible way and to trust Him even if I do not understand why He said no.
It's difficult for us to understand the mind of God in these matters, especially in a situation where we may pray for the healing of a loved one or family member and yet they still end up dying. One of the key concepts in the Model Prayer in Matthew is that we pray for God's will to be done. In essence the meaning behind this is we may pray for the healing of a loved one, for example, but we also pray for God to help us accept the outcome if His will is not to heal that person. I have seen both sides of prayer over the years, sometimes where many people pray for something and it doesn't happen in the way they pray but also I have seen some miracles performed where doctors gave someone no hope to live (for example stage 4 cancer, confirmed but multiple scans and tests) and then that person's cancer miraculously disappeared after many people prayed leaving the doctors speechless at how it could happen. None of this proves the existence of God but hopefully it sheds a little light on how I view prayer as a Christian and why it seems like God often says "no" to things we think he should say "yes" to.
NCSNOW
Member
Well stated RC.
Yes Gawx if your asking if I feel murder is bad, absoloutely. Cause I see value in every life. Whether someone has the same viewpoint as me or not. Thats why its heart breaking seeing babies butchered by the millions and it deemed as being alright,cause its a social issue , choice...
Because I see life as a gift from God. Not just my life but everyones. Apparently there are alot of people who dont view life that way. Its understandable because they dont beleive in God. Their is no absolute compass to guide them.
So the fact weve murdered over 60 million plus babies in this country alone over the past 4- 5 dacades illustrates that they have no guilt or shame in continuing to promote this.
Yes Gawx if your asking if I feel murder is bad, absoloutely. Cause I see value in every life. Whether someone has the same viewpoint as me or not. Thats why its heart breaking seeing babies butchered by the millions and it deemed as being alright,cause its a social issue , choice...
Because I see life as a gift from God. Not just my life but everyones. Apparently there are alot of people who dont view life that way. Its understandable because they dont beleive in God. Their is no absolute compass to guide them.
So the fact weve murdered over 60 million plus babies in this country alone over the past 4- 5 dacades illustrates that they have no guilt or shame in continuing to promote this.
NCSNOW
Member
Isaiah 55: 8-11
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
So does that prove that God doesn't exist, or does it acknowledge that he might exist and if he does, then there are things about his nature that we don't fully understand?
I'm not at all asking if you feel murder is bad. Why? Because I don't feel the need to because I assume you as well as the vast majority of people feel that way based on the assumption of common decency, not on the basis of assuming you and others are fellow believers in the Almighty. You kind of made it sound like that belief was pretty essential to have that common decency. That's what I strongly disagree with you on.
Last edited:
Downeastnc
Member
Society determines what is right or wrong, as a rule society regardless of which god they believe in has the same general laws and rules, this is because over time we have learned that killing/harming/stealing are counter productive. Back in the middle ages when religion was law a lot of things we today as a society do not allow was legal and accepted, burning witches at the stake or killing/imprisoning people for heresy for example....
A big mistake people have is also assuming their culture or rules are the "right" ones......again it goes back to whatever the society allows and accepts....they are not mutually exclusive.
Shaggy
Member
No it means god doesnt exist and when those and other prayers arent met then its excused as " god works in mysterious ways".
snowlover91
Member
A lot of what they did back in the middle ages in the name of "religion" was not supported by a biblical worldview either, there were some crazy things that happened in the name of "religion" back then that I would strongly condemn. What I find interesting is that you seem to disapprove of what they did in the Middle Ages yet according to the society back then this was perfectly acceptable behavior. If their society deemed that behavior acceptable, what right do you have to say their society was wrong about that or condemn them for it if society determines right/wrong?
If a society allows/accepts something as morally good or bad, does that actually make it so? The problem with viewing morality based off a culture is that every culture has a view of what is "moral" and if you go to various cultures you will find conflicting views of morality not to mention the views of morality will shift with time. If you go to one culture and murder is acceptable and it's not in another, which one do you personally abide by and why? If society determines morality, how can one society say murder is wrong but another society deem it acceptable? Which one is morally correct and why?
The Nazis decided their mass murder and concentration camps were acceptable but other nations then and now condemned it. To the Nazi's it was a "good" thing and their overall society approved of the mass murder/torture they engaged in. How about the radical Muslims who commit suicide and murder numerous innocent people and execute homosexuals? In their view this is perfectly acceptable in their society. What right do you or I have to speak against them for their murderous actions if their behavior is morally acceptable in their own society? If society determines what is right then there is nothing wrong with what the Nazi's did, what the Muslims do or what the Middle Age church people did because all of those things were morally acceptable to their specific society and culture. I simply don't understand the logic behind society dictating morality because you run into some massive problems when you have different societies with shifting values or contradicting ones.
pcbjr
Member
3 commandments ... Love your God; love your brother; then do unto others ... sums up my Catholicism, faith and entire world view ...
WEATHERBOYROY
Member
I have seen answered prayers in my life. Some things you might write off as coincidence, but some things that there was no other explanation.
Just because God doesn't respond the way you want Him to doesn't mean He doesn't answer.... but He doesn't owe you anything, not even a response, especially when your heart is full of pride and unbelief. Who are you that you can stand against the Almighty? Why should He speak to you? God's invisible qualities, His Divine Nature, His eternal qualities , are clearly seen by what has been created.....you are without excuse. When you humble yourself and seek God with all your heart , you're gonna find Him.....Either way you'll find Him one day.
Shaggy
Member
Because he is suppose to love all of us?
Any prayer can vaguely answered but when it comes down to tangible prayers that require miracles they never happen.
- Status