Sandbar
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Thats exactly the point. Fill in the blank and we kill for it. I keep getting told God is in control. He controls it all. Maybe next time you pray to him you can ask and report back what he says to you
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Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
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Satan is never given enough credit for the chaos he and his minions create.
I know what the Bible says about although there are variations with certain denominations. I’m more curious on the spiritual side of killing and about it being right or wrong for whatever reason. Were the soldiers who lined up to fight Hitler wrong or was Hitler actually right? If you shoot someone who tries to kill you or your family wrong or is the one who wants to kill you right because he thinks you have more than he. Is spiritualism at its core nothing more than like the story the man who grabbed the tiger by the tail to save his life and then tricked the Buddhist monk into holding it for him?
Iceagewhereartthou
Member
This is a great post. No one should "blindly believe " ANYTHING. I don't get the impression that anyone in this thread, including the Christians have done that.
For myself, I did not grow up in a Christian household. Certainly there were Christian influences around me but I did not become a believer because someone told me too or because I just wanted it to be true. Years of study and questioning and talking yielded enough evidence that Christianity became the most convincing perspective to understand and explain life and the universe.
I agree that religion is a dangerous and difficult path. We need to be very careful making decisions based on religious practices. But in this aspect, whether you see it or not, Christianity differs from other religions. Christianity is a religion in the academic sense, but it's not supposed to be in the practical sense. Christians aren't supposed to follow a specific way of thinking and follwing of rules to gain favor by God. It's about reconciliation to God through his own sacrifice, for the good of people whose own behavior have caused a separation from God. Yes there are rules to follow, but those are not the means for reconciliation, but an outflow of the changes made within those whom have been reconciled. So you and other soldiers are wise to question and leave religion, and look deeper and outside of youselves for truth and meaning.
Sandbar
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Taking a life is wrong period. I didn't need anything but common sense to figure that out. The only thing that changed in my life was I stopped going to church (Serves no need for me personally) and I no longer use the bible as an excuse for judging or condemning people. I no longer see my creator as the god worshipped in the bible, I absolutely do not believe in hell or judgement of any kind and I do not believe your biblical god is in control of anything. Spirituality saved me before religion killed me and that's really the sum of it all
What denomination were you?
Sandbar
Member
Nobody here should take what I say personally as I don't know any of you but the Vatican is pure evil and they control Christianity. If any of you take the time to be open minded and research this you will see just how evil they really are. Stepping back and looking at the abrahamic religions it didn't take me long to see how man corrupted it. You take a long look at Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Catholicism. They all think they are right and obviously they are more than willing to wipe one another off the planet to make sure of it. Every single person that puts their faith on one of these thinks the other 3 got it all wrong. Something else that caught my attention. If you look at and compare Krishna to Jesus the story is very much the same only Krishna came long before Jesus. Jesus was a great teacher not a messiah....
I do appreciate your last sentence! You at least are willing to accept a path different from yours that leads to the exact same place
Sandbar
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I grew up in the Methodist church
So I take it you are now completely non-resistant.
Sandbar
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You need to be more specific. Non-resistant to what?
To violence completely, any sort for any reason.
Sandbar
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Violence is unfortunately a necessary evil but I would hope you all would be against such a thing.
Now killing for survival is part of the animal kingdom we belong to. The definition of survival I'm sure will differ among many
WEATHERBOYROY
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Are you saying you would kill to survive?
Sandbar
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I have to eat just like a Lion does. If someone evil broke into my house or threatens me on the street I have options. There is a difference between taking life when necessary versus unnecessary. Violence is a choice
WEATHERBOYROY
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would someone else be wrong to kill someone trying to kill you?
Who determines evil or necessary? I’m not trying to be obtuse but as I said last night, I’m very curious to your spiritual reasoning. For instance the US deemed vaporizing ~200k civilians with the atomic bombs necessary.
Predators and sometimes other members of the same flock will kill the wounded or those that stand out. Was Hitler really evil then?
Sandbar
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If you believe in free will then you have your answer. Since I know where you are going with this lets skip the BS. What you really want to ask me is who I think determines moral code and where I stand on judgement and punishment. Since I fully believe in reincarnation, what I believe happens at the end of this life, when I shed this avatar meat suit I am in I will have a life review. Our purpose for being here is to learn how to love unconditionally. For most that will take many lifetimes. You kill out of hate in this life perhaps you start at the bottom. That's part of the great mystery but I do not believe in hell. If there is a hell I am certainly in it now. If you research near death experiences many will tell you the things I am speaking of regarding life reviews, reincarnation, etc. My NDE came from my psychedelic treatment that pretty much saved my life. The psychedelic I took mimics the NDE but it doesn't take you as far as an actual NDE. It does however give you a clear understanding of the role consciousness plays in not only our existence but life in the universe as well
thundersnow
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I see your laughing emoji response to my comment about the brokenness of the world and Cain and Abel. I suppose you find that humorous. But, that's not a particularly good look and smacks of arrogance.
Look- I don't pretend to have all the answers. Why does God allow evil in this world? It appears He has created beings in the heavenly and earthly realms with the capability of doing good but also not. Sentient beings in this universe are allowed to make choices. And, God doesn't force all creation to follow His will. The Creator has granted beings the ability of will and choice. Why does He allow it all to continue on? Some things we may not ever know on this side of eternity. He desires His beings return to Him willingly.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
If every being in heaven and on earth followed God's will and didn't seek glory of self, destruction, and chaos, I suspect it would all be "fixed." But, that just isn't now the universe works. And, no scheme or alternate "spiritual awakening" you or anyone else can contrive will resolve it either.
That is a whole lot of words that still tells me nothing about where you actually stand on things and where you get your reasoning. How does free will determine right or wrong? For instance I’m supposed to be under the control of the Vatican, yet your worldview supposedly come from a drug. Now I’m thankful whatever treatment saved your life though. Yes, there are plenty of near death experiences and some who claimed to see after death. What makes one who had a reincarnation death experience more true than someone who say went to heaven and came back? Or someone who had a “life review” or someone who claims the actually went to a literal burning hell and then were brought back? I don’t necessarily believe in near death experiences so that is where I stand on that.
What is love and hate, but chemicals in the brain? What necessary is right or wrong if we are indeed animals.
Sandbar
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Well it appears to me that you and I don't have much else to converse about then. I'm not here to change minds or push people in another direction only to tell you what I have experienced and despite what some of you have been told it's not your job to do that to others. If I did I am no different than the evil entities I am here discussing. If you are happy on your path then good for you. I wasn't, I explained why and it drives some of you bonkers when it shouldn't. All you are really doing here is engaging in confirmation bias of your own faith. I spent 40+ years sitting in the pews. I have walked your path so I have all the evidence I need to make my own personal judgement. Have you walked mine?
Sandbar
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Why don't you just simply ask me the basic question you want to ask without me having to sift through the fishing and trapping you are trying to do.
Haha, I stopped trying to trap people in arguments years ago. It doesn’t work. I’m actually trying to reason to what you really believe, because so far I really don’t know besides Christianity is evil because it kills people and everything else is orange jello.
Sandbar
Member
I have already told you what I believe multiple times and of course you have told me many times you don't buy it. If you need a specific answer to a specific question by all means ask it but you have already told me I am wrong so why do you feel the need to do it over and over again?
I’ve already asked specific questions, your main gripe against God and the Bible was because God says he would judge and destroy those against him, yet when asked you moved from all killing is evil, to some violence is necessary because people are evil. If people are evil, and God judges what is right, then he is not wrong to judge evil.
Now if you believe you are God and can rightly determine right or wrong, that would make logical sense and this conversation would be over. But trying to understand around squishy logic is really interesting. Because if you are right and there is no God to judge and we all get reincarnated, then we are really just wasting time. Me with you and you with me because in the end all this is pointless anyways. It’s kind of like the goofy evolutionists who tell me there is no God nor absolute truth and we all just disappear when we die, yet then try to shame me for not saving the planet or some dumb endangered animal.
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thundersnow
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If you had only come here to give insight on the trauma of combat veterans and the effect that has had on their (your) faith, and that's all it was, that would be one thing. And, I can't touch that. If organized Christianity failed to bring you through this... then, okay. I have not been through what you have been through. I respect your service, and I have no issue with your giving this insight about what going through this was like. I do not judge you for the crisis of faith that came as a result of these life experiences. I can't say really anything about your journey, recovery, or what have you. That story is yours to tell. And, I appreciate and respect that for what it is.
The issue I have is when blatant misinformation or mischaracterization occurs that is aimed at somewhere else in order to further justify your decision to leave organized Christianity. You can't expect people to not speak up when you say things that just aren't accurate, especially when they are disparaging. It's comments along the lines of all Christians are slaves to the Vatican, or the Bible was created by evil organizations, or what have you... you just can't expect those of us who believe that these allegations are unfair and inaccurate... to just sit by and let it happen.
Surely, you can understand that much, "confirmation bias" notwithstanding.
Sandbar
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I believe in non-duality. The Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism would be a good example of this although I do not prescribe to any specific dogma surrounding my belief.
Sandbar
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Ok why are you accurate and I am not? Why am I getting misinformation but you aren't? Because the bible said so and it's the divine word of god? According to who?
thundersnow
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Let's avoid the ad hominem of whether "you" or "I" are "accurate" or not. Let's stick with specific issues and statements and not focus on who said what. If something (regardless of who says it) is not accurate, then that thing is what needs to be looked at, not "why are you accurate but not me?" That then becomes not a "me versus you" issue but an examination of the statement(s) on their own merit.
Now, there are a number of things that have been said here. As a results there are a bunch of tangents that we could endlessly go on about.
But, I'll just scroll up to look at a few things said. For example, this was said:
"I don't know any of you but the Vatican is pure evil and they control Christianity."
How does the Vatican "control" Christianity exactly? You do realize that there are traditions of Christianity that have no history through the Vatican? The Vatican does not affect what they do today. They don't answer to the Vatican. This is the type of statement that is inaccurate.
Let's just start with that.
Sandbar
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The influence today is a moot point. The Catholic church controlled what was to become biblical canon, the biblical canon you follow today came directly from the people responsible for murdering tens of millions of non- believers and those they deemed blasphemous and practicing heresey. The ONLY thing you have proof of other than your blind faith is what they made available for you to believe. There are many biblical scholars who have picked through the book to find changes, mis translation, translation errors. I have already shown you that Krishna was Jesus 3000 years before Jesus was Jesus. How do you explain this? Just coincidence?
thundersnow
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No, you're still missing what I am saying.
I'm not just referring to influence today.
There are Christian traditions today that were never under control of the Vatican at any point in their history. Get that straight. The Eastern Orthodox traditions such as the Coptics, Ethiopian, and Greek Orthodox Churches were never under the authority of the Vatican. They would think the idea quite silly that the Vatican determined what their Scriptures look like.
I'm not chasing after other issues yet (regarding Krishna, or whatever... nor am I going to be distracted by antagonistic commentary about "blind faith" or who or what murdered tens of millions of whoever). You obviously have talking points you're going to continue to repeat, I suppose.
What we're going to do first here is drive home the point that the Vatican did not "control" what has been in the Biblical canon across all of Christianity. We will discuss the factuality of claims being made.
Sandbar
Member
Sorry but you don't get to control what I discuss. You can choose to ignore every word I say or me in general but not what I discuss. I'm showing you what I researched with an open mind and my own personal conclusions. If you feel attacked or feel your religion is attacked that's a you problem. The fact that you have 4 religions with multiple denominations and multiple books with some of this and that removed and tweaked here and there tells me all I really need to know. Much easier and clearer to throw it all out and go with a direct connection to the source of creation
snowlover91
Member
You haven’t shown this at all, merely claimed this is the case without any documentation or references to sources. The story of Krishna is vastly different than the one of Jesus. Here’s a few examples.
Krishna wasn’t crucified but was killed in a hunting accident. Here’s the excerpt from the actual story from Mahabharata (Book 16: Mausala Parva):
“The hunter, mistaking [Krishna]…for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey. Coming up, Jara [the hunter] beheld a man dressed in yellow robes, rapt in Yoga and endued with many arms. Regarding himself an offender, and filled with fear, he touched the feet of [Krishna, who] comforted him and then ascended upwards…When he reached Heaven [he] met the deities…”
Krishna was also born in a prison, killed demons, had several wives, is an avatar of Lord Vishnu, never promised Heaven to anyone or asked anyone to believe in Him, was a warrior, stole milk and butter, etc.
Here are a few more misconceptions below.
- Christ is a form of the name Krishna.” No etymological connection between “Krishna” and “Christ” actually exists. Christ (christos) is the Greek equivalent of messiah (Hebrew mashiach). Both mean, “anointed one.” Krishna is an unrelated personal name, which derives from a Sanskrit term meaning “black, dark, dark-blue.”2
- “Krishna was born of a virgin.” This is a popular claim, sometimes made by atheists,3 but also by those who profess to be Christian.4 Hindu texts make it clear that his mother Devaki had already conceived seven other sons, the first six of whom were executed by the evil prince Kamsa after their births.5 Matthew states that the chaste Mary fulfills an ancient prediction of the prophet Isaiah (Matthew 1:23; cf. Isaiah 7:14).
- “Both men were born in a manger.” Contrary to songs sung at Christmastime, Jesus was not born in a manger, but rather was laid there after His birth (Luke 2:7). The Hindu text indicates that Krishna was born in a prison cell where Kamsa had imprisoned his sister Devaki and her husband Vasudeva when he learned that the couple’s eighth child (Krishna) was destined to kill him.6
- “Krishna was born on December 25, like Jesus.” Sources differ on the exact day of Krishna’s birth, which is often recognized as having occurred in the month of July. Hindus celebrate the birth of Krishna in the month of Bhadrapada (August/September). The Bible does not give a date for the birth of Jesus, which does not appear to have occurred at any time during the winter. Historian Andrew McGowan points out that the second-century author Clement of Alexandria identified several possible dates for the birth of Christ debated during his day, but December 25 is nowhere among his suggestions.7 None of the earliest estimates indicates Christ was born in December.
- “Krishna died at age thirty.” Although Jesus died in his early thirties, Krishna lived a much longer life. Common estimates place Krishna’s age at death somewhere around 100 years. A 2004 article in the Times of India reported Hindu scholars calculated that Krishna died at the age of 125.8
- “Krishna died by crucifixion.” Crucifixion appears nowhere in the Hindu texts. Krishna died after a hunter named Jara shot him in the sole of his foot with a poisoned arrow after mistaking him for a deer.9 Kersey Graves infamously claimed Krishna was crucified between two thieves, that darkness attended the event, and that he gives up the ghost and descends into hell,10 details he—or a source he used—invented out of whole cloth.
- “Krishna resurrected after three days.” After his death, Krishna’s spirit appears almost immediately.11 Being liberated from his physical body—or abandoning it—his spirit returns to the realm of the divine. Hindu pilgrims today still visit Dehotsarga (literally, where Krishna “gave up his body”),12 where they believe Krishna died. Jesus was buried in a newly cut rock tomb and later experienced a bodily resurrection that serves as a prototype for believers (1 Corinthians 15:20, 42-44). The Hindu view of Krishna’s death is much closer to Neo-Platonic philosophy than it is to Christianity.
A common problem found in the work of militant critics is the failure to adequately understand the beliefs of the religions they oppose. Critics can be inexcusably careless in their descriptions, making ancient religions appear more similar than they really are. This is often done by describing non-Christian elements of other religions using Christian vocabulary, and then marveling at the similarities between the two. In some cases (especially authors from the 19th and early 20th centuries), these parallels were made using vague interpretations, supported by evidence which was poorly understood and likely fabricated.
Despite claims to the contrary, the story of Christ in no way plagiarizes the story of Krishna. To argue otherwise is to twist and distort the teachings of both Christianity and Hinduism.”
Source
Sandbar
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Ok.....that about wraps this conversation up.
thundersnow
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Wow- thanks for the info and link, snowlover91. I found the Wikipedia article on the proponent of the supposed Christ/Krishna connection:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S
She was apparently behind a lot of this stuff. It seems the claims have been roundly debunked and quite frankly ripped to shreds by reputable scholars, even non-Christian ones.
It just goes to show you that you don’t just jump on board with something “new and earth shattering” without cross-examining it with basic fact checking as well as seeing if it holds up to scrutiny by scholarship in the field.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acharya_S
She was apparently behind a lot of this stuff. It seems the claims have been roundly debunked and quite frankly ripped to shreds by reputable scholars, even non-Christian ones.
It just goes to show you that you don’t just jump on board with something “new and earth shattering” without cross-examining it with basic fact checking as well as seeing if it holds up to scrutiny by scholarship in the field.
Sandbar
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Just putting it out there. Nothing to debunk it's right here. If you can't see the similarities. You don't want it to be true and im sure you will try your best to work that "out of context" magic but a little too similar for my taste. Jesus did go missing for 18 years. I'm sure he was just hanging in town and not travelling to far off lands like India and Egypt to learn about their culture
Sandbar
Member
If you look at the law of energy conservation it states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it simply changes form. When the creator of the universe created all energy that was it. You are light energy just like your creator. When you shed your body your energy is not destroyed. It simply transforms. Perhaps that's as a tree or a dog or another human life but your soul will re-incarnate many times as it seeks to learn all aspects of life in the evolution of your soul. What's at the end is what we all seek
Iceagewhereartthou
Member
Have you considered this might apply to you as well? One of the biggest reasons people do not not believe Jesus was who He said He said He was, or even that God exists is because they do not want it to be true. We all have a desire to want to do things our way; it's a human trait. Many people are so opposed to the idea that there is an ultimate authority that tells them it is not ok to do certain things that they just decide they don't want any part of it. "I want to do what I want to do, sleep with whomever I want to, lie cheat and steal when it suits, and I don't want anyone to tell me it's not ok or accept any consequences for it."
WEATHERBOYROY
Member
I guess my question to you is : who is this "creator of the universe" you speak of, and where do you get your information about his design?
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Sandbar
Member
This is where the fear part comes in for you. You fear the lord in that book. I don't because I don't believe in any loving god that would cast me into a burning hell for something as shallow and ignorant as not obeying his commands. The fear of that biblical god doesn't seem to be working because the world is on fire right now. Can you not see how this can be used to control people? This is exactly what a dictator does. Puts fear into people. Controls people. Oppresses people. Those same people can't make it through life without the dictators threats. I would be extremely surprised if a high percentage of people who call themselves christians believe everything that book tells them for no reason other than fear. Fear is a hell of a tool
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