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Sandbar said:
Yeah well I did all that buddy. Every single last word of it I did for 45 years. How Many time do you need to be told I accepted Jesus a long time ago? Should I just go back to faking how I feel about religion? To lying about it? You seem to be far more concerned about me in the afterlife than you do in the now life but I don't want to offend you in any way bro since your trying so hard to help a man who no longer needs it or asked for it. Like I mentioned just above don't pray for me because I seemed out and found help. If you want to pray, pray for the 5 brothers I buried who's kids don't have a father to celebrate Christmas with this weekend. Pray for the men and women who protected your freedom to choose that religion who will kill themselves this weekend before getting help because I can guarantee you they are praying for guidance and putting it in God's hands as we speak. All I asked of any of you is to accept a different spiritual path that leads to people getting help and you can't even do that much without preaching to me? You would rather make sure I know you are the only one who knows the right way and I'm dead wrong than just accept? You call that following the teachings of Jesus? I really hate that you see sadness in any of this. That is just sickening to me but perhaps you guys are right. I took what should be a happy story and plopped it in the wrong place for that sort of thing
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We are only here on this earth for a blink of an eye compared to the afterlife. My goal is not to offend anyone or cast judgement on their way of life, it is merely to spread the gospel as the Bible instructed us to do. The decisions we make here are very important. Again, thank you for all that you have done to protect our freedom.
 
I found this very thought provoking and indicative of trends in evangelical churches in the US

LOVER OR PROSTITUTE?
The Question that Changed My Life
-by David Ryser.

A number of years ago, I had the privilege of teaching at a school of ministry. My students were hungry for God, and I was constantly searching for ways to challenge them to fall more in love with Jesus and to become voices for revival in the Church. I came across a quote attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe.
It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this:

?"️Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise."
Some of the students were only 18 or 19 years old, and I wanted them to understand and appreciate the importance of the last line, so I clarified it by adding: "An enterprise. That's a business."
After a few moments, Martha, the youngest student in the class, raised her hand. I could not imagine what her question might be. I thought the little vignette was self-explanatory and that I had performed it brilliantly. Nevertheless, I acknowledged Martha's raised hand, "Yes, Martha."
She asked such a simple question:

?"A business? But isn't it supposed to be a body?"
I could not envision where this line of questioning was going, and the only response I could think of was "Yes."
She continued:

?"But when a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
The room went dead silent.
For several seconds no one moved or spoke.
We were stunned, afraid to make a sound because the presence of God had flooded into the room, and we knew we were on Holy ground.
God had taken over the class.
Martha's question changed my life. For six months, I thought about her question at least once every day. "When a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
There is only one answer to her question.
The answer is "Yes."
The American Church, tragically, is heavily populated by people who do not love God. How can we love Him? We don't even know Him; and I mean REALLY know Him....
I stand by my statement that I believe that most American Christians do not know God--much less love Him.
The root of this condition originates in how we came to God.
Most of us came to Him because of what we were told He would do for us. We were promised that He would bless us in life and take us to heaven after death. We married Him for His money, and we don't care if He lives or dies as long as we can get His stuff. We have made the Kingdom of God into a business, merchandising His anointing.
This should not be.
We are commanded to love God and are called to be the Bride of Christ--that's pretty intimate stuff. We are supposed to be His lovers. How can we love someone we don't even know? And even if we do know someone, is that a guarantee that we truly love them?
Are we lovers or prostitutes?
I was pondering Martha's question again one day and considered the question:

?"What's the difference between a lover and a prostitute?"
I realized that both do many of the same things, but a lover does what she does because she loves. A prostitute pretends to love, but only as long as you pay.
Then I asked the question:

?"What would happen if God stopped paying me?"
For the next several months, I allowed God to search me to uncover my motives for loving and serving Him.
Was I really a true lover of God?
What would happen if He stopped blessing me?
What if He never did another thing for me?
Would I still love Him?
Please understand, I believe in the promises and blessings of God. The issue here is not whether God blesses His children; the issue is the condition of my heart.
Why do I serve Him?
Are His blessings in my life the gifts of a loving Father, or are they a wage that I have earned or a bribe/payment to love Him? Do I love God without any conditions?
It took several months to work through these questions. Even now, I wonder if my desire to love God is always matched by my attitude and behavior. I still catch myself being disappointed with God and angry that He has not met some perceived need in my life. I suspect this is something which is never fully resolved, but I want more than anything else to be a true lover of God.
 
ghost1 said:
I found this very thought provoking and indicative of trends in evangelical churches in the US

LOVER OR PROSTITUTE?
The Question that Changed My Life
-by David Ryser.

A number of years ago, I had the privilege of teaching at a school of ministry. My students were hungry for God, and I was constantly searching for ways to challenge them to fall more in love with Jesus and to become voices for revival in the Church. I came across a quote attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe.
It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this:

?"️Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise."
Some of the students were only 18 or 19 years old, and I wanted them to understand and appreciate the importance of the last line, so I clarified it by adding: "An enterprise. That's a business."
After a few moments, Martha, the youngest student in the class, raised her hand. I could not imagine what her question might be. I thought the little vignette was self-explanatory and that I had performed it brilliantly. Nevertheless, I acknowledged Martha's raised hand, "Yes, Martha."
She asked such a simple question:

?"A business? But isn't it supposed to be a body?"
I could not envision where this line of questioning was going, and the only response I could think of was "Yes."
She continued:

?"But when a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
The room went dead silent.
For several seconds no one moved or spoke.
We were stunned, afraid to make a sound because the presence of God had flooded into the room, and we knew we were on Holy ground.
God had taken over the class.
Martha's question changed my life. For six months, I thought about her question at least once every day. "When a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
There is only one answer to her question.
The answer is "Yes."
The American Church, tragically, is heavily populated by people who do not love God. How can we love Him? We don't even know Him; and I mean REALLY know Him....
I stand by my statement that I believe that most American Christians do not know God--much less love Him.
The root of this condition originates in how we came to God.
Most of us came to Him because of what we were told He would do for us. We were promised that He would bless us in life and take us to heaven after death. We married Him for His money, and we don't care if He lives or dies as long as we can get His stuff. We have made the Kingdom of God into a business, merchandising His anointing.
This should not be.
We are commanded to love God and are called to be the Bride of Christ--that's pretty intimate stuff. We are supposed to be His lovers. How can we love someone we don't even know? And even if we do know someone, is that a guarantee that we truly love them?
Are we lovers or prostitutes?
I was pondering Martha's question again one day and considered the question:

?"What's the difference between a lover and a prostitute?"
I realized that both do many of the same things, but a lover does what she does because she loves. A prostitute pretends to love, but only as long as you pay.
Then I asked the question:

?"What would happen if God stopped paying me?"
For the next several months, I allowed God to search me to uncover my motives for loving and serving Him.
Was I really a true lover of God?
What would happen if He stopped blessing me?
What if He never did another thing for me?
Would I still love Him?
Please understand, I believe in the promises and blessings of God. The issue here is not whether God blesses His children; the issue is the condition of my heart.
Why do I serve Him?
Are His blessings in my life the gifts of a loving Father, or are they a wage that I have earned or a bribe/payment to love Him? Do I love God without any conditions?
It took several months to work through these questions. Even now, I wonder if my desire to love God is always matched by my attitude and behavior. I still catch myself being disappointed with God and angry that He has not met some perceived need in my life. I suspect this is something which is never fully resolved, but I want more than anything else to be a true lover of God.
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Good read...... The church lost its true way centuries ago and they hacked the bible to meet their own fear requirements along the way. They formed this impression among their followers that God is some old man in the sky that is in control of everything and everyone. The one "true way". Enlightenment is coming. It may not come full circle in my lifetime but maybe my grandkids will have the opportunity to have a judgement free relationship with our creator
 
ghost1 said:
I found this very thought provoking and indicative of trends in evangelical churches in the US

LOVER OR PROSTITUTE?
The Question that Changed My Life
-by David Ryser.

A number of years ago, I had the privilege of teaching at a school of ministry. My students were hungry for God, and I was constantly searching for ways to challenge them to fall more in love with Jesus and to become voices for revival in the Church. I came across a quote attributed most often to Rev. Sam Pascoe.
It is a short version of the history of Christianity, and it goes like this:

?"️Christianity started in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise."
Some of the students were only 18 or 19 years old, and I wanted them to understand and appreciate the importance of the last line, so I clarified it by adding: "An enterprise. That's a business."
After a few moments, Martha, the youngest student in the class, raised her hand. I could not imagine what her question might be. I thought the little vignette was self-explanatory and that I had performed it brilliantly. Nevertheless, I acknowledged Martha's raised hand, "Yes, Martha."
She asked such a simple question:

?"A business? But isn't it supposed to be a body?"
I could not envision where this line of questioning was going, and the only response I could think of was "Yes."
She continued:

?"But when a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
The room went dead silent.
For several seconds no one moved or spoke.
We were stunned, afraid to make a sound because the presence of God had flooded into the room, and we knew we were on Holy ground.
God had taken over the class.
Martha's question changed my life. For six months, I thought about her question at least once every day. "When a body becomes a business, isn't that a prostitute?"
There is only one answer to her question.
The answer is "Yes."
The American Church, tragically, is heavily populated by people who do not love God. How can we love Him? We don't even know Him; and I mean REALLY know Him....
I stand by my statement that I believe that most American Christians do not know God--much less love Him.
The root of this condition originates in how we came to God.
Most of us came to Him because of what we were told He would do for us. We were promised that He would bless us in life and take us to heaven after death. We married Him for His money, and we don't care if He lives or dies as long as we can get His stuff. We have made the Kingdom of God into a business, merchandising His anointing.
This should not be.
We are commanded to love God and are called to be the Bride of Christ--that's pretty intimate stuff. We are supposed to be His lovers. How can we love someone we don't even know? And even if we do know someone, is that a guarantee that we truly love them?
Are we lovers or prostitutes?
I was pondering Martha's question again one day and considered the question:

?"What's the difference between a lover and a prostitute?"
I realized that both do many of the same things, but a lover does what she does because she loves. A prostitute pretends to love, but only as long as you pay.
Then I asked the question:

?"What would happen if God stopped paying me?"
For the next several months, I allowed God to search me to uncover my motives for loving and serving Him.
Was I really a true lover of God?
What would happen if He stopped blessing me?
What if He never did another thing for me?
Would I still love Him?
Please understand, I believe in the promises and blessings of God. The issue here is not whether God blesses His children; the issue is the condition of my heart.
Why do I serve Him?
Are His blessings in my life the gifts of a loving Father, or are they a wage that I have earned or a bribe/payment to love Him? Do I love God without any conditions?
It took several months to work through these questions. Even now, I wonder if my desire to love God is always matched by my attitude and behavior. I still catch myself being disappointed with God and angry that He has not met some perceived need in my life. I suspect this is something which is never fully resolved, but I want more than anything else to be a true lover of God.
Click to expand...

I’ve been thinking on this since this morning and for one thing, he isn’t wrong. I agree that most of the American church does not know God. I also agree that we as Christians can easily get to a state where we believe God owes us a good life, material possessions and good health, which isn’t so. God is God regardless of what lot he chooses for us and whatever lot is for our own growth for his glory.

However that said, We love Christ because he first loved us. We serve Christ because he took it upon himself as a servant to serve us. He then said if we truly love him we will keep his commandments.

Not to be critical, but this honestly reads as a mostly fluff piece that tries to invoke deep thinking and an emotional response but stops when the tough gets going. It’s good to self access our love for God, but it profits nothing unless that self-accessment
actually changes who we are and draws us closer to him and leads to us doing his commandments.
 
Arcc said:
I’ve been thinking on this since this morning and for one thing, he isn’t wrong. I agree that most of the American church does not know God. I also agree that we as Christians can easily get to a state where we believe God owes us a good life, material possessions and good health, which isn’t so. God is God regardless of what lot he chooses for us and whatever lot is for our own growth for his glory.

However that said, We love Christ because he first loved us. We serve Christ because he took it upon himself as a servant to serve us. He then said if we truly love him we will keep his commandments.

Not to be critical, but this honestly reads as a mostly fluff piece that tries to invoke deep thinking and an emotional response but stops when the tough gets going. It’s good to self access our love for God, but it profits nothing unless that self-accessment
actually changes who we are and draws us closer to him and leads to us doing his commandments.
Click to expand...
I agree with a lot of what you said.. but I didn’t take this as a fluff piece at all. It’s a perspective I’ve never heard discussed before in 6 decades of attending mostly fundamental evangelical churches of 3 or 4 flavors. It really challenged me and still does
 
ghost1 said:
I agree with a lot of what you said.. but I didn’t take this as a fluff piece at all. It’s a perspective I’ve never heard discussed before in 6 decades of attending mostly fundamental evangelical churches of 3 or 4 flavors. It really challenged me and still does
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I'm not sure I really understand the point the author is making.
 
ghost1 said:
I agree with a lot of what you said.. but I didn’t take this as a fluff piece at all. It’s a perspective I’ve never heard discussed before in 6 decades of attending mostly fundamental evangelical churches of 3 or 4 flavors. It really challenged me and still does
Click to expand...
When I wasn't deployed we went to several churches off base and I got the same 3 things. The collection plate, judgement, a sermon on inviting more people to church to fill the collection plate and the sermon that I just needed a different church when I complained about it to people. I applaude the gentleman for having the courage to speak up. I mean you can't even get people of different denominators within Christianity to agree with one another at times
 

Ponder This​

God has two witnesses that say He exists—creation and conscience. The inner is the subjective witness of conscience; the outer is the objective witness of creation. The blazing stars and this Universe—how did it happen? To be an atheist you have to believe nothing times nobody equals everything. But God has set His witness in the sky. Psalm 19:1-4; says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun.” Anybody, any place, any time can go out and look up at the stars and conclude, “That didn’t just happen.”

In the French Revolution, a revolutionary told a French peasant as they were pulling down the churches and destroying the houses of worship, “Peasant, we’re going to destroy everything that reminds you of God.” And the peasant pointed to the stars and said, “Begin with those stars.” The heavens declare the glory of God.

Romans 1:20-21
 
NCSNOW said:

Ponder This​

God has two witnesses that say He exists—creation and conscience. The inner is the subjective witness of conscience; the outer is the objective witness of creation. The blazing stars and this Universe—how did it happen? To be an atheist you have to believe nothing times nobody equals everything. But God has set His witness in the sky. Psalm 19:1-4; says, “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun.” Anybody, any place, any time can go out and look up at the stars and conclude, “That didn’t just happen.”

In the French Revolution, a revolutionary told a French peasant as they were pulling down the churches and destroying the houses of worship, “Peasant, we’re going to destroy everything that reminds you of God.” And the peasant pointed to the stars and said, “Begin with those stars.” The heavens declare the glory of God.

Romans 1:20-21
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From my point of view the creator IS conscience. They are one in the same.......
 
Wasn't sure where to put this so mods can move if need be.....But WOW. Phenomenal on many levels. Long but worth the watch even if it's just parts here and there. The freemason and book of Enoch material is enough in and of itself. This is our history!

 
It's actually hard to watch...Starts at 35 minutes and gets worse from there. He has a very good argument I'm afraid to say

 
He is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
 
Revelations 2:9 my favorite Bible verse


9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Synagogues of satan sounds so badass
 
This sermon is hour long. Gets awesome 33ish mark in. This guy is the best prophecy teacher I know. More info on the Red Heffer sacrifice coming up and what it means . My prayer is everyone is watching and has a know that you know salvation. The hour is drawing near. Thank you Jesus for what you did for me. I dont deserve any of it.

 
NCSNOW said:
Amazing Times we find ourselves living in. The Blessed Hope is the only true Peace there is. If you don't have it, its free and giving to anyone who ask. Still time, but its getting shorter by the day.
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Bro there is no peace anywhere on this planet where religion rains supreme. Look around you. It's been this way since it took hold.......War, war and more war but hey it's right there in the bible. Destroy and kill anything and everything that doesn't submit and obey
 
Come on man.... that's just not true. My Bible teaches a hatred for sin but forgiveness for sinners. If you really drill down into it, more wars are fought over money and political views than religious beliefs. Hitler wanted a superior race to rule the world. You can't blame God for war. You need to blame the uneducated and power-hungry.
 
Cad Wedge NC said:
Come on man.... that's just not true. My Bible teaches a hatred for sin but forgiveness for sinners. If you really drill down into it, more wars are fought over money and political views than religious beliefs. Hitler wanted a superior race to rule the world. You can't blame God for war. You need to blame the uneducated and power-hungry.
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This is what your bible teaches.....Hate. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You folks have been praising a dictator not the creator. The creator is consciousness not a old bearded man in the sky

What does the Bible teach us about dealing with non believers….

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman".

Luke 19:27

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Matthew 10:34

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword".

Ezekiel 35:7-9

I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation, and I will cut off from it all who come and go. And I will fill its mountains with the slain. On your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall. I will make you a perpetual desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord".

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
 
Sandbar said:
This is what your bible teaches.....Hate. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You folks have been praising a dictator not the creator. The creator is consciousness not a old bearded man in the sky

What does the Bible teach us about dealing with non believers….

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman".

Luke 19:27

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Matthew 10:34

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword".

Ezekiel 35:7-9

I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation, and I will cut off from it all who come and go. And I will fill its mountains with the slain. On your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall. I will make you a perpetual desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord".

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Click to expand...

Don’t eat that fish or chicken because you may be eating God.

www.yahoo.com

Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient

Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus. Recent research backs them up.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
Sandbar said:
This is what your bible teaches.....Hate. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You folks have been praising a dictator not the creator. The creator is consciousness not a old bearded man in the sky

What does the Bible teach us about dealing with non believers….

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman".

Luke 19:27

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Matthew 10:34

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword".

Ezekiel 35:7-9

I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation, and I will cut off from it all who come and go. And I will fill its mountains with the slain. On your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall. I will make you a perpetual desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord".

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Click to expand...

Not a single one of these is a root characteristic description of God. None of these are "preaching hate". None of these show unjustified brutality toward those who do not believe.

2 Chronicles 15 is a "revival" of Israel returning back to God. Israel was a Theocracy at this point so disbelief in God would be considered a crime in the highest degree against God. This is a covenant it is not an act that occurs, it's possible not a single person was killed under this covenant! It is not a blanket statement across all of humanity. It is held within the confines of Israel.

Luke 19:27 is a parable told by Jesus. Those "enemies" are in fact or reference to Jews or "Gods chosen people" who did not follow Christ. This is referencing past events in the history of Israel in which they turned from God and faced persecution as well as the upcoming destruction of the Jews city and temple. It is by not a blanket statement of "I'll kill all my enemies." It is quite literally punishment for God's people and not unbelievers.

Matthew 10:34 is Jesus dispelling the popular belief that the Messiah was there to lift them out of Roman captivity. Quite the opposite would actually occur and this in reference to the political unrest and violence that would unravel during Jesus' final days on earth. Jesus' ministry was dropping a proverbial "bomb" into the status quo that had existed for centuries. Unrest, dispute, persecution would be a result. Again, this is not a verse displaying a characteristic of Jesus but rather Jesus explaining what would come as a result of His ministry. In fact, this passage actually is predicting the persecution of the believer and is not describing killing unbelievers. Christ is referred to many times as the Prince of Peace.

Ezekiel 35 is a fulfillment of prophecy against the descendants of Esau. Israel being a theocracy any hostility toward them is a direct action against God. The people of Edom tried to take advantage of the land after the destruction of Judah. This was a direct act against Gods chosen people and chosen land. Gods prophet is speaking judgement on Edom for that act in which they would face destruction as God protects Israel. These were not just "innocent unbelievers" but were actively working toward the destruction of Gods people. This is certainly is not a blanket statement over all "unbelievers" especially today as there is no longer an Israeli Theocracy.


I Samuel 15 is the same story as the people of Edom. Judgment of a people standing against God and His people.


I don't think many people understand the Israel in the Old Testament. We read those stories as brutal and come out thinking "wow what a hateful God" but fail to remember an act against Israel in that day is quite literally an act against the physical person of God. Not to mention the wickedness of the people in this day is nearly beyond comprehension. beastiality, incest, SA against children, child sacrifice, are all common themes among these people who stood against Israel so much so it would literally be practiced in public.


None of these passages teach "hate". None of these passages show unjust consequences for non-believing people. It's important to remember the Old Testament stories revolving around Israel are truly a "different" time with God speaking and working directly through Israel as a Theocracy. Something that no longer exists. The New Testament and Old for that matter has countless examples of a loving God and a God that desires peace, and offers salvation for all people.
 
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Fountainguy97 said:
None of these passages teach "hate". None of these passages show unjust consequences for non-believing people. It's important to remember the Old Testament was truly a "different" time with God speaking and working directly through Israel as a Theocracy. Something that no longer exists. The New Testament has countless examples of a loving God and a God that desires peace, and offers salvation for all people.
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So God changed his mind?
 
Sandbar said:
Bro there is no peace anywhere on this planet where religion rains supreme. Look around you. It's been this way since it took hold.......War, war and more war but hey it's right there in the bible. Destroy and kill anything and everything that doesn't submit and obey
Click to expand...

Sandbar said:
This is what your bible teaches.....Hate. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You folks have been praising a dictator not the creator. The creator is consciousness not a old bearded man in the sky

What does the Bible teach us about dealing with non believers….
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Fountainguy wrote a good response to your quotes, and stated it better than I could have; but I just wanted to respond a bit about the teaching of the Bible.

There are obviously many; MANY, people that see God in the old testament as a mean, angry, and hurtful God; and superficially I can understand why. Many people credit the OT as a major reason, or even the reason they either gave up their faith or never had it to begin with. Many popular atheists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Bill Maher certainly point to this "evil monster of a god" from the OT. But as Fountainguy described, the passages pointed to are often and easily misunderstood and used. The terrible things in the OT are consequences of what people do and sin they orchestrate; not because God is terrible. There is a book you may want to read that helps frame some of this (I may have mentioned it before); Is God a Moral Monster: Making Sense of The Old Testament God: by Paul Copan.

I agree that peace on this planet is absent; but I ascribe that to human flaw and weakness. Our envious and prideful nature (among other tendencies) insure that we don't know how to truly love and treat each other as we should. Tragically we know how to corrupt everything. It's true that religion (including Christianity) has often been used to justify terrible things, but that is why we need to judge religion by the standards of that religion, and not the destructive followers.

Nowhere in the Bible is hate taught; nowhere. (Remember, people today have a very warped view of the word "hate," ie. "if you don't approve of what I am doing then it is because of hate." Disapproval often has NOTHING to do with hate, as any parent knows.) In fact; the Bible is about love and reaching out. What is the greatest commandment?

Mark 12:30–31​


30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

​

John 3:16–17
​

16 For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.



Phillians 2:3

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,



Matthew 5:43-47

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?


Romans 13:8-10​

Love Fulfills the Law

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


John 13:34

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


There are literally hundreds of verses we could point out; but the Bible teaches forgiveness, turning from personal sin, reaching out to your neighbor, turning the other cheek, serving others, and loving others above all; especially nonbelievers. The great commission Jesus gave is not to go out and kill nonbelievers, but to share the Gospel with them. What does the Gospel teach believers to do? Forgiveness, turning from personal sin, reaching out to your neighbor, turning the other cheek, serving others, and loving others above all.
 
Iceagewhereartthou said:
Fountainguy wrote a good response to your quotes, and stated it better than I could have; but I just wanted to respond a bit about the teaching of the Bible.

There are obviously many; MANY, people that see God in the old testament as a mean, angry, and hurtful God; and superficially I can understand why. Many people credit the OT as a major reason, or even the reason they either gave up their faith or never had it to begin with. Many popular atheists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Bill Maher certainly point to this "evil monster of a god" from the OT. But as Fountainguy described, the passages pointed to are often and easily misunderstood and used. The terrible things in the OT are consequences of what people do and sin they orchestrate; not because God is terrible. There is a book you may want to read that helps frame some of this (I may have mentioned it before); Is God a Moral Monster: Making Sense of The Old Testament God: by Paul Copan.

I agree that peace on this planet is absent; but I ascribe that to human flaw and weakness. Our envious and prideful nature (among other tendencies) insure that we don't know how to truly love and treat each other as we should. Tragically we know how to corrupt everything. It's true that religion (including Christianity) has often been used to justify terrible things, but that is why we need to judge religion by the standards of that religion, and not the destructive followers.

Nowhere in the Bible is hate taught; nowhere. (Remember, people today have a very warped view of the word "hate," ie. "if you don't approve of what I am doing then it is because of hate." Disapproval often has NOTHING to do with hate, as any parent knows.) In fact; the Bible is about love and reaching out. What is the greatest commandment?

Mark 12:30–31​


30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

​

John 3:16–17​

​

16 For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.



Phillians 2:3

3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,



Matthew 5:43-47

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?


Romans 13:8-10​

Love Fulfills the Law

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


John 13:34

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


There are literally hundreds of verses we could point out; but the Bible teaches forgiveness, turning from personal sin, reaching out to your neighbor, turning the other cheek, serving others, and loving others above all; especially nonbelievers. The great commission Jesus gave is not to go out and kill nonbelievers, but to share the Gospel with them. What does the Gospel teach believers to do? Forgiveness, turning from personal sin, reaching out to your neighbor, turning the other cheek, serving others, and loving others above all.
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That is a great book! Well worth a read

Here is another verse.

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭33‬:‭11
 
Sandbar said:
This is what your bible teaches.....Hate. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You folks have been praising a dictator not the creator. The creator is consciousness not a old bearded man in the sky

What does the Bible teach us about dealing with non believers….

2 Chronicles 15:12-13

And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman".

Luke 19:27

But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Matthew 10:34

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword".

Ezekiel 35:7-9

I will make Mount Seir a waste and a desolation, and I will cut off from it all who come and go. And I will fill its mountains with the slain. On your hills and in your valleys and in all your ravines those slain with the sword shall fall. I will make you a perpetual desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited. Then you will know that I am the Lord".

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
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Amazing to see how much scripture you know! You seem to have a little trouble with the Creator's right to judge mankind. It seems you forgot one of the most significant ones in Genesis 6
" 5Then [c]the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
You see. the creator first of all owns it all. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. I'm sorry if you don't like that🤣 I guess you do what you want with your possessions? Next, God is a Good God. Evil is not good, if you didn't know. There is none good but God. So, if it is contrary to God, it is Evil. God is the giver of all life, at His word it is given and taken. God doesn't have to tolerate even the first evil thought, such as some you have been willing to pen. But, in all His Holiness, Righteousness, and Power, there is great patience. ...................2pet 3:9The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
God's judgment is explained in Rom 1...
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen."
Some of these things probably seem foreign to you. They were that way for me at one time. But, Satan has blinded the minds of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the Gospel. You MUST be BORN AGAIN! Not fo flesh and blood, but of the Spirit. One of the most beautiful Truths is "Micah 7:18Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy." psalms 103 says He doesn't treat us as our sins deserve, or repay us according to our iniquity."
And most of all, He has shown it by His own personal Sacrifice. ......................................Phil 2:6Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross!"
God is the same yesterday , today, and forever......God is Love!
 
Let’s have some fun with the OT…

Top 10 Biblical ways to obtain a wife (according to the OT)

10. Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she’s yours. – (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)

9. Find a prostitute and marry her. – (Hosea 1:1-3)

8. Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.- Moses (Exodus 2:16-21)

7. Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. – Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)

6. Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, kidnap one and force her to be your wife. – Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)

5. Have God create a wife for you while you sleep.-Adam (Genesis 2:19-24)

4. Have a husband killed and take his wife. -David (2 Samuel 11)

3. Kill 200 of your future father-in-law’s enemies, cut off their foreskins, and trade them for his daughter to be your wife -David (I Samuel 18:27)

2. Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you’ll definitely find someone. -Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)

1. Don’t be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. – Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)
 
ghost1 said:
Let’s have some fun with the OT…

Top 10 Biblical ways to obtain a wife (according to the OT)

10. Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she’s yours. – (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)

9. Find a prostitute and marry her. – (Hosea 1:1-3)

8. Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.- Moses (Exodus 2:16-21)

7. Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. – Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)

6. Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, kidnap one and force her to be your wife. – Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)

5. Have God create a wife for you while you sleep.-Adam (Genesis 2:19-24)

4. Have a husband killed and take his wife. -David (2 Samuel 11)

3. Kill 200 of your future father-in-law’s enemies, cut off their foreskins, and trade them for his daughter to be your wife -David (I Samuel 18:27)

2. Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you’ll definitely find someone. -Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)

1. Don’t be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. – Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)
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I don't know if this is tongue in cheek; of course it's difficult to determine tone, inflection, or intent over the internet. If you are implying the OT is telling people these are generally correct ways to find a wife I think you are grossly misinterpreting the OT and probably not looking at the context these are taken from. There are literally books written on how to correctly understand historical context and how they connect to the bigger picture of the Biblical message if you care to take the time to read and understand them.

Some of these you list might be cynicism; 2 and 5, for example? I think it's safe to say God is not going to create wives for any of us while we sleep, that was a situation specific event that also set the stage for challenging later social practices of women being inferior to men; women were made from and complimentary to man so that can only mean equal value and worth (intentionally created this way, even from the very beginning, not just decided on by an "enlightened" 21st century person) even though their roles may differ. It has been cultures that thought of women as inferior but we see that was not the intent or nature of creation.

Some of these were very specific directions for a specific person or situation, and some of these are not directions but accounts of what actually happened; decisions that fallen people made. For example (to illustrate the point), the OT is not trying to tell people that passing out drunk in a tent rather than attending your duties (Noah) was a direction; it was using a real account to illustrate different lessons; like less than perfect people can still do great work, just because you do great work doesn't mean you are above reproach, staying focused on task is very important, etc. The Bible, like Christians today, is full of people who sin. I could try to go in and tackle these one at a time but it would be a very lengthy undertaking and my guess is it would not be read anyway. There are great ways to understand the place for these passages if you truly want to understand them.
 
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