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I also don't believe Jesus was the messiah. A great teacher absolutely but not a messiah. I believe a lot of things that boast he was are simply rubbish
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Misc All Things Religious
- Thread starter Cad Wedge NC
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The creator is light consciousness as I have mentioned before. The same light that's inside you. Non-duality.....The creator is experiencing life on this planet through everything in the universe. Neither of us nor anyone else has proof of anything right? Belief is in the eye of the beholder but we are all going to the same place in the end which is the goal right? Only real difference between my path and yours is that book and your belief that those who don't follow your path are doomed to hell. Most christians believe this so I am making an assumption you do as well but I don't know what's in your heart
This is where you run into an issue with logic. There is no middle ground with Jesus. He claimed he was God's son/the Messiah. You either believe him or you don't. If you don't believe that, then you can't possibly think he was a great teacher. He is exactly one of 3 things:
1) The Messiah, as he said he was
2) A lunatic who went around proclaiming to be something he was not
3) A liar
Options 2 or 3 do not leave the door open to any possibility of him being a teacher of anything great.
I know you aren't going to change your mind about anything. But it's never a bad idea to point out logical fallacies when they present themselves. It helps to cut through the emotional debris and prevents us from deluding ourselves too much.
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That's by your Christian biblical standards and nothing more. This is what someone thousands of years ago told you he claimed you just chose to take their word for it. I don't belong to that church/bible mentality so YES he can absolutely be something opposite of what you think. You have zero proof of anything but word of mouth and faith. Remember the bible was put together LONG after Jesus death. If I told you a story today it would be different by Monday of next week when it got back to me. We all make up our own truth when it comes to things of this nature. I know you don't see it that way but your religion isn't the first by a long shot. Because someone claims someone said something doesn't make a word of true
Sandbar
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Do you guys think the Hindu is going to hell? The Buddhist? Jews? Muslims? People who live in a jungle who will never know Jesus because of where they live? Everybody going to hell that doesn't have a membership to your country club? Tell me what's in your human heart right now not what Scripture says. Are these folks going to hell for not believing EXACTLY as you think? Christians can't even agree amongst themselves
This is why it is pointless to debate with you. Because you jump all over the place. My belief of who Jesus is or isn't is irrelevant to what I posted.
Stay on point. You said Jesus was absolutely a great teacher. He can't possibly have been a great teacher without teaching truthfully. He is either who he claimed to be, OR he was absolutely NOT a great teacher. This is not an option, a dream, a drug-induced experience, a vision, or a prophecy.
If you truly believed and went around proclaiming that you were Elvis and went around pretending to be Elvis, it calls into question your credibility on everything else you do and say. It certainly would not be the basis from which to build your legacy as a great teacher.
If Jesus was not who he said he was, then he is a fraud. Period. He cannot be believed and he is by definition not a great teacher of anything.
thundersnow
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Well, that sure didn’t last long- I guess you changed your mind since you posted that, huh? Keep coming back for more.
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He WAS NOT a Messiah. If he indeed said he was and you have a record of him saying it then yes he was a liar but I don't believe he ever said such a thing. I believe the downtrodden peasents who were being beaten to death wanted him to be and so they made him such. There is not a single word in the bible written down BY JESUS. Not one. As far you really know, people have been believing in nothing but a fairy tale for 2000 years. I don't 100% know but my guess would be that most of the disciples couldn't even read or write so if that's true how do you know what you are reading is 100% accurate? Again all you have that can be 100% proven is your faith. That's all anybody has when it comes to religion. Try jumping off a cliff and have faith you can fly and see where it gets you. You are gonna go splat 10 times out of 10 even if you say your prayers before you leap
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I was referring to that specific topic whatever it was. These are great conversations to me. I've already been where you are for a long time and I really didn't change that much but man you folks can't stand to be challengedWell, that sure didn’t last long- I guess you changed your mind since you posted that, huh? Keep coming back for more.
thundersnow
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Oh, about Krishna. Yeah, you might have figured out you're not getting very far with that one.
I'll have to catch up on today's additional discussion.
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I put it out there in black and white a page back. If you disagree that's cool but YES they are ironically similar for being 3000 years apart
Well, I'm not the one going around claiming he was an absolutely a great teacher. It seems like a pretty "faith-based" point of view coming from someone who doesn't trust anything that was written down about him.
Sandbar
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Was he not a great teacher? Absolutely he was. Was it confusing the way I wrote it? Didn't intend it to be. It's difficult to take something that old that is second hand knowledge as gospel. The Jewish people were a majority oral society back then and there is zero chance that what was written is 100% historically accurate. In fact I would put the odds at very low. If you are going to call a book holy and change the course of history of a human race you had better have something more to offer than "just have faith". If I do come across harshly I apologize but it angers me the grip religion has on people and the fear it brings to people's lives. It's caused a lot of deaths but I can't make you see it bro. I spent many years in the heart of it and the human race will never advance where the heart lies with religion trying to lead the way
snowlover91
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Paul wrote 13 of the New Testament books and was as highly educated as you could be in that day and was incredibly brilliant. Matthew was a tax collector and Luke was a physician/doctor.
Historically the people of Jesus day were looking for a Messiah but not the type He was/claimed to be. They were looking for freedom from Roman oppression; economic security, peace and freedom. Btw there are external sources apart from Scripture
When you study the New Testament and extra biblical sources and documents you see an interesting picture. The Jews DID want Jesus to be someone who would deliver them from the oppressive Roman Empire. They wanted peace, economic stability, financial freedom, etc.
The New Testament instead presents Jesus as One Who will “save His people from their sins” in Matthew 1:21. All throughout the New Testament the message isn’t one of overthrowing the Romans but instead revealing Jesus as the promised Messiah who would offer freedom and forgiveness of sin to all who respond in faith.
In regards to NT authorship and literacy, Paul wrote a significant portion of the NT and was a well educated and incredibly smart man. Luke was a physician/doctor and Matthew was a tax collector.
Sandbar
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How many of those books have been 100% confirmed as being written by him? Britannica says 7, the rest can't be confirmed. How many of the rest of the biblical text have 100% confirmed authors that wrote their own books because Paul alone doesn't move the needle. If you are gonna call a book holy and God's word you need a lot more than 1 dude you can actually tie their own words to
I am having trouble understanding why you think he was a great teacher when you continually say you can't trust what was written about him, which is the only basis we would have be able to formulate an opinion about what he taught. It's a head-scratcher for me.
snowlover91
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I highly recommend reading “An Introduction to the New Testament” by D.A. Carson and Douglas Moo. These two men are some of the very best and answer all your questions/objections and more in a very thorough and well documented way. Paul actually wrote 13 NT books for certain and there may be a few others (such as Hebrews) that he wrote. Paul very clearly identifies himself in each of the 13 attributed to him and Carson/Moo provide compelling documentation (640 pages of it) detailing all of this in the book mentioned.
Who wrote most of the New Testament? | GotQuestions.org
Who wrote most of the New Testament? Who wrote most of the books in the New Testament?
www.gotquestions.org
Iceagewhereartthou
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How do you get fear out of this post? I said absolutely nothing about fear; I am talking about people not wanting to acknowledge that they may have to take responsibility for how they live so they just do whatever they want. It's a convenient way to justify doing whatever one wants if there is no real morality against it. You have brought up the fear based faith several times in the thread and it has been sincerely and easily explained that that is not the case for many believers. For some it is; but many know that faith is based in forgiveness, sacrifice, hope, life, and love. As for control, if God wanted to control people that would have been easy enough; create people without free will; they would just be robots or puppets. God chooses not to control people because He loves them and wants them to be capable of love. Love is only possible in humans with free will, because love has to be freely given. Dictators don't care about any of that; just power. If that is all God wanted He could have arranged it without any difficulty.
Iceagewhereartthou
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I think what CR is saying is 2 fold.
1: If you are going to dismiss that he was the Messiah because it was not written in the Bible by Jesus himself, then why would we trust that any of the things he supposedly said about morals and teachings were true, since none of those were written by Jesus himself either.
2: If one of the things He taught was the he was the Messiah, and he was wrong about that; then we would be fools to think anything he said had any merit, especially his ethical teachings; since honesty is an ethic.
In either case, there would be no basis for saying He was a good moral teacher. In the first case we would have to say there are no grounds to reject His being the Messiah but accept His moral teachings; other than just picking and choosing what we like; and in the second case His lying about being the Messiah was evidence of His lack of integrity and his teachings would be meaningless.
Iceagewhereartthou
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Sandbar; this exact question has been discussed multiple times in this thread by multiple people with some very good, insightful, and fair posts. Some have even had good articles and videos included that gave a lot more input than we can give here. I have given thoughts on this before as well but I will give a quick version of my take.
I hope others don't just think what I think. I am a fallen human with many errors and flaws and I am not the moral arbiter of the universe, nor do I have the power to decide if anyone goes to Heaven or Hell. What is in my human heart is greed, lust, envy, pride, ungratefulness, and countless other detestable traits. I am unworthy of Heaven simply because of these traits. Would other people want someone like me in Heaven? I doubt it; not with those traits. Now I like to think I also have some wonderful traits as well but unfortunately my bad ones stain my good ones and overpower them. If there is indeed a Heaven, I am only getting there by someone giving me forgiveness and reconciliation that I cannot earn and do not deserve. I think the evidence is very good that such a being exists and that there is a way for me to accept that forgiveness but I do have to be willing to accept my flaws and try to follow the one who has given that path. We all have choices to make; we can choose to believe what we want and follow who or what we want; that is free will. But God wants us to love Him and that must be freely given as well. If we choose that we do not want to be with God then He will not force us to be with Him and he will allow us to be seperated from Him; even forever. That is what Hell is; permenant separation from Him and all of his attributes.
thundersnow
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Matthew 16:15-17
[15] He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” [16] Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
It sure sounds like Jesus confirmed He was the Messiah here.
[15] He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” [16] Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
It sure sounds like Jesus confirmed He was the Messiah here.
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Allahu Akbar
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Geez man if you don't want to answer just say it. You are hung up on frickin words for some reason. He was a teacher not a Messiah, just my opinion. Does that make it clearer?
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Well if it's in the great book it has to be true right? Can't have it any other way. Jesus didn't actually write this so maybe he said it maybe he didn't. That's normally how stories get shaped over decades. True then just as it is now
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I appreciate you being honest with what's inside you? It's time for Christians to stop acting like they are special. Like they have some special bond with god. I'm not going to hell for being spiritual and not answering to a book. Nobody is going to hell for not being baptized or confessing anything. So many Christians believe this and it's disturbing to me. So what do you think God is? If you are going to love something that much and feel judged by it, what is God to you? A person you are going to stand in front of?
thundersnow
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What does the word “Messiah” mean to you?
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Sandbar
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The same as unicorn. A symbol. When I served with Chris Kyle in 2006 I used to call him a unicorn because he was rare and some of the shots he made were unheard of. He wasn't actually a unicorn........
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So switching gears do you guys believe the universe contains billions of galaxies with who knows how many stars and planets? Do you believe biblical god created all of that but just focused life on one planet with a special group of people, his chosen people? Why create all of that extra fluff? Much of it is so old it probably doesn't exist anymore. Doesn't make a lot of sense that their wouldn't be life all over the universe
I'm sorry believe what you want, but hell is very real and Jesus spoke of it more than anyone else in the Bible. He also said "I am the way, the Truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." There is but one way.
John 3:16-18 NIV
[16] For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Believe in Him and you will not perish, it's pretty clear. Also, He was not sent to condemn but to save those who were already condemned.
I understand of course this requires belief and faith, debating it is insightful and has a role for sure. But at the end of the day all the evidence can point one in a specific direction but it comes down to their heart and their willingness to accept it. Some will never believe no matter the evidence and some have that beautiful child like faith that God desires for us and believe without hesitation. Oh if we all had that child like faith. God is real, heaven and hell are real and I only want what God desires: that all would be saved. I have this desire not out fear but for love of all.
John 3:16-18 NIV
[16] For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Believe in Him and you will not perish, it's pretty clear. Also, He was not sent to condemn but to save those who were already condemned.
I understand of course this requires belief and faith, debating it is insightful and has a role for sure. But at the end of the day all the evidence can point one in a specific direction but it comes down to their heart and their willingness to accept it. Some will never believe no matter the evidence and some have that beautiful child like faith that God desires for us and believe without hesitation. Oh if we all had that child like faith. God is real, heaven and hell are real and I only want what God desires: that all would be saved. I have this desire not out fear but for love of all.
thundersnow
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I was asking because we tend to assume that people understand the meaning of words and the background of the word. But, that isn’t always the case. They may have an impression of what the word is in reference to. So, I thought I would ask what you understood that word to mean.
I think the word has somewhat entered the common vernacular, but people don’t really know what the word literally means or what its background is.
I assume you do at least know that the word “Christ” is simply the Greek translation of the Hebrew word “Messiah.” But, that might have been assuming too much.
Both mean “anointed” or “anointed one.” A background study from the Old Testament is needed to know the background and import of the word.
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Sandbar
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Have you ever been to hell? Know anybody that has? Until you can answer yes to either of those you are just guessing out of nothing but fear. You can sit here and tell me it isn't all about fear until the cows come home but buddy I know better. If god is about unconditional love why would he torment you with even a chance of going to hell? if he told you to go to the highest mountain and stick a knife in your firstborn would you do it to prove that faith? That is just childish nonsense man but I know you believe it with all of your heart. It's funny you mention children. They believe in Santa Clause, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy too when they are kids. The disconnect between myself and the rest of you is just that book bro. It's the one thing that you cling to because it's the only thing that makes you different from everyone else. Same goes for Jews, Muslims and Catholics. This is exactly why you all argue amongst yourselves to the point you are willing to frickin kill over it. You HAVE TO WIN. YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT. If we all loved unconditionally we would all believe the same thing. Because we don't means it's all BS to me
Sandbar
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Yeah and I can anoint anything or anybody at any time. That doesn't change a thing in reality. Jews don't believe he was a messiah and Jesus was a Jew. Why are they wrong? Because the bible says so?.....lol
thundersnow
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What does the word “anoint” mean? Do you know what that is in reference to and what is meant by it when words such as “Christ” or “Messiah” are used in the Bible?
And, when you say “a messiah”… do you know the background of people waiting for “the” Messiah in the Biblical context?
Well Abraham was until God intervened.... anyway I'm not here to debate this with you. I was just proclaiming my Faith and recognizing God's sacrificial love. All I can do is give a witness and pray about it, God didn't call me to be successful but to be faithful. I hope I can do just that.
Sandbar
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Jesus wasn't a messiah in my opinion. I don't care what it means or what anoint means. The word messiah seems to be a pretty big deal to you but it means nothing to me at all. I'm not going to spend 8 hours arguing over a word. This is the type of thing that leads to "I am done with this conversation". You can anoint anything and anybody to be a messiah
Sandbar
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And why would Abraham even think about doing such a thing in the first place? Because god asked him too and then said my bad when Abraham was about to do it? He was going to stick a knife in his own son he waited so long for because he though god would bring him back. Is there anybody on this earth that would even consider that today?
thundersnow
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Of course, it's a big deal to me. As as "Christ-ian," (follower of the Messiah), it should be, and you should expect nothing less from those of us who believe Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, the Christ.
Sandbar
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Another topic.....If you found out that we were not alone in the universe how would that affect your faith and what you believe?
thundersnow
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It would be neither here nor there. If God created other beings elsewhere on other planets, all good. No concerns about that one way or the other. Until such life is found, that's all speculation anyway.
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At least you are remaining open minded about it because I think you are going to face it at some point
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