Misc All Things Religious

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Its not a delusional world.....also it seems to me you live your life in fear of what might happen, and if you want to waste part of your life going to church and worrying about gods wrath have at it.....

The fear you Christians have I understand as I use to have it too......

It is interesting you say that. The vast majority of Christians I know actually live with very little fear. Having an eternal perspective on life and the world, combined with the faith that one belongs to God does not usually produce fear. In fact, we are "not given a spirit of fear but of sonship."

 

[Rain Cold]

Sorry I'm just getting around to responding Downeast. I certainly can't speak for other Christians, but I think it is certainly fair to apply that standard to Christians as well, and I don't think it would cause a problem. While it's true you'll hear some Christians say "I know there is a God," most readily admit their philosophy requires a bit of faith, which is a necessary foundation for a Christian. In fact, I don't remember specifically ever hearing a Christian say they could prove that God exists (though I am sure it happens). One of the big differences between the thought processes of theists and atheists is that theists admit (and even celebrate) that their worldview incorporates a bit of faith, whereas atheists almost always put themselves as far away from the word "faith" as they can get. "Atheism is a lack of faith" is a common line. Yet logically, we see that is not true, as the atheism worldview also takes faith. This idea that atheists don't have faith allows them to think they deal in "fact" while theists deal in "opinion," but that is not the case.

As for the flood, Earth age, and dinosaurs; I personally would not be confident enough to say "we know what is factual." I think we could have whole degree programs on all those topics so we will not solve them here and I certainly don't have all the answers on all those topics. We could quibble from now about how many animals Noah would have needed, how the ark could have been built soundly enough, fossils and carbon dating, etc. As I stated earlier, I think they are interesting topics to discuss but they are not essential for belief in God or Jesus or salvation. I seriously do not think (I may be wrong) God will ask us how old we thought the Earth was or if we thought dinosaurs and man lived together as a qualification test. John 3:16 gives a good summary of the essential tenets of Christianity. "God, love, begotten Son, belief, everlasting life."

This is a great post. I have thought about this topic of faith vs proof many times though the years. There is no way to actually prove anything on either side. Both points of view require faith.

We ALL have faith in something. But when I look around this world and I think of the wonders that I see, placing my faith in the notion that it all developed out of random chance seems like the far bigger and far more ludicrous leap for me. The Bible says that the heavens declair His glory. And they do.

 

[Arcc]

This is a great post. I have thought about this topic of faith vs proof many times though the years. There is no way to actually prove anything on either side. Both points of view require faith.

We ALL have faith in something. But when I look around this world and I think of the wonders that I see, placing my faith in the notion that it all developed out of random chance seems like the far bigger and far more ludicrous leap for me. The Bible says that the heavens declair His glory. And they do.

People have a distorted view of what faith is, which is why it is so silly everytime I hear someone who is an atheist say they don’t have faith in anything. Faith is believing something and acting on what that belief is. Everyone, everywhere has faith in something.

 

[frazdaddy]

People have a distorted view of what faith is, which is why it is so silly everytime I hear someone who is an atheist say they don’t have faith in anything. Faith is believing something and acting on what that belief is. Everyone, everywhere has faith in something.

Agree, without faith, there would be no context for opinions.

 

[Shaggy]

I don't think I ever said there was "proof" and if did I shouldn't have (in fact, I've been pointing out the opposite to be intellectually honest). I think I have said I see a lot of evidence. Yes, it does require faith, but NOT blind faith. I consider myself a thinking person and have questioned and talked and researched and read and questioned again; heck it takes me weeks to decide what pillow or appliance to buy! We all have to decide what we believe when it comes to God. He either exists or He does not. I believe He exists as I see far more evidence that He does than that He does not.

Ok thanks. I was taking your use of evidence as you saying it was proof. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Downeastnc]

People have a distorted view of what faith is, which is why it is so silly everytime I hear someone who is an atheist say they don’t have faith in anything. Faith is believing something and acting on what that belief is. Everyone, everywhere has faith in something.

Oh I agree, I have faith in a lot of things, but for the most part they are things that have earned my faith through actions I can quantify....some others are testing my faith right now ( like my faith in humanity lol )

 

[Arcc]

Oh I agree, I have faith in a lot of things, but for the most part they are things that have earned my faith through actions I can quantify....some others are testing my faith right now ( like my faith in humanity lol )

I think I lost my faith in Humanity with Honey Boo Boo....

 

[NCSNOW]

Hebrews 11:1-6

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for(A) and assurance about what we do not see.(B) 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.(C)
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command,(D) so that what is seen was not made out of what was
visible.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him(I) must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

 

[Shaggy]

Hebrews 11:1-6

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for(A) and assurance about what we do not see.(B) 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.(C)
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command,(D) so that what is seen was not made out of what was
visible.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him(I) must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I see 6 as the proof there is no proof of god.

In reality there is not one piece of physically verified proof that god, jesus ever existed. It's all a book a story book at that written by man proofread and edited by Constantin.

 

[Rain Cold]

I see 6 as the proof there is no proof of god.

In reality there is not one piece of physically verified proof that god, jesus ever existed. It's all a book a story book at that written by man proofread and edited by Constantin.

The Bible is not the only source that talks about the existence of Jesus. That said, faith is required to accept that God exists, the same as it is to accept that there is no God.

 

[Shaggy]

The Bible is not the only source that talks about the existence of Jesus. That said, faith is required to accept that God exists, the same as it is to accept that there is no God.

I dont think it takes any faith to accept there is no god.

The bible was written in a time of great ignorance in regards to the world. Nobody understood nature so many cultures accepted odd weather or plagues as a sign that some god was angry.

We know how the world works now and we know all those stories and behaviors from god were just unknown weather back then.

In fact theres a terrible locust infestation right now in India and nobody even blinks an eye as to if it's a biblical plague.

This means all those godly acts are all bogus and never happened. There was no parting of the red sea. In fact that entire story is fake. The new translation of "red sea" is actually "sea of reeds" which was a shallow lake that is now dry.

 

[Arcc]

I dont think it takes any faith to accept there is no god.

The bible was written in a time of great ignorance in regards to the world. Nobody understood nature so many cultures accepted odd weather or plagues as a sign that some god was angry.

We know how the world works now and we know all those stories and behaviors from god were just unknown weather back then.

In fact theres a terrible locust infestation right now in India and nobody even blinks an eye as to if it's a biblical plague.

This means all those godly acts are all bogus and never happened. There was no parting of the red sea. In fact that entire story is fake. The new translation of "red sea" is actually "sea of reeds" which was a shallow lake that is now dry.

Come on now, let's be be real here. If you believe the Bible is fake that is up to you, but it's just silly to try to interpret it that way. For instance the Egyptian army were drowned in a shallow pond? I guess the Jordan River was a small creek that they just stepped over and Manna was actually bird poop. The day never stood still as well, the Isrealites master chemists discovered meth and they whipped their enemy in such a short time it was as the day stopped, that or they smoked pot all day.

 

[Rain Cold]

I dont think it takes any faith to accept there is no god.

The bible was written in a time of great ignorance in regards to the world. Nobody understood nature so many cultures accepted odd weather or plagues as a sign that some god was angry.

We know how the world works now and we know all those stories and behaviors from god were just unknown weather back then.

In fact theres a terrible locust infestation right now in India and nobody even blinks an eye as to if it's a biblical plague.

This means all those godly acts are all bogus and never happened. There was no parting of the red sea. In fact that entire story is fake. The new translation of "red sea" is actually "sea of reeds" which was a shallow lake that is now dry.

A couple of points worth considering are that the idea of a greater being doesn't come from words on a page from an ancient text. Man has considered the existence of God since the beginning of time. And cultures without access to or influence from the Bible have been found to engage in worship and to speak about a higher power. Even if you remove the Bible from discussion, the idea of God remains.

The other point is that yes, there are things we know about the world. And there is much that we think we know, which we will later come to understand differently. I hate the argument that we are now so smart that we can be sure God doesn't exist. An atheist would have made that same arguement centuries ago when the world was flat.

We are in no way smart enough or know enough to definitively conclude that God doesn't exist. And just like I can't prove to you that God sent locusts to Egypt by reading you a Bible story, you can't prove to me that he didn't, just because there happen to be locust swarms around today.

So far, there is no solid proof offered in either direction...only arguments based on a presupposition. The conclusion is that it takes faith to subscribe to either point of view -- faith that a creator exists or faith that we have comprehensive and concrete knowledge about the entirety physical universe we occupy. The latter seems like much more of a leap to me.

 

[Shaggy]

A couple of points worth considering are that the idea of a greater being doesn't come from words on a page from an ancient text. Man has considered the existence of God since the beginning of time. And cultures without access to or influence from the Bible have been found to engage in worship and to speak about a higher power. Even if you remove the Bible from discussion, the idea of God remains.

The other point is that yes, there are things we know about the world. And there is much that we think we know, which we will later come to understand differently. I hate the argument that we are now so smart that we can be sure God doesn't exist. An atheist would have made that same arguement centuries ago when the world was flat.

We are in no way smart enough or know enough to definitively conclude that God doesn't exist. And just like I can't prove to you that God sent locusts to Egypt by reading you a Bible story, you can't prove to me that he didn't, just because there happen to be locust swarms around today.

So far, there is no solid proof offered in either direction...only arguments based on a presupposition. The conclusion is that it takes faith to subscribe to either point of view -- faith that a creator exists or faith that we have comprehensive and concrete knowledge about the entirety physical universe we occupy. The latter seems like much more of a leap to me.

Exactly. Gods are a human condition. We've invented them from the beginning to explain the unexplained. Native Hawaiians didnt know why lava came out of the volcano so they invented Palai(sp).

We have science and physics that teach us about the universe. We have an okay understanding of how it works. We have scientific provable reason for all the plagues and we know its impossible for people to live hundreds of years.

We know when theres something that doesnt add up they tell you not to trust in your own understanding and just believe anyways. They tell you if your prayers arent answered that it's okay because god works in mysterious ways.

Its mind control.

 

[Rain Cold]

Exactly. Gods are a human condition. We've invented them from the beginning to explain the unexplained. Native Hawaiians didnt know why lava came out of the volcano so they invented Palai(sp).

We have science and physics that teach us about the universe. We have an okay understanding of how it works. We have scientific provable reason for all the plagues and we know its impossible for people to live hundreds of years.

We know when theres something that doesnt add up they tell you not to trust in your own understanding and just believe anyways. They tell you if your prayers arent answered that it's okay because god works in mysterious ways.

Its mind control.

None of that offers any evidence that God doesn't exist. Prayers answered or not doesn't mean God exists or doesn't exist. Lava coming out of a volcano, locusts swarming, viruses circulating the planet, etc. doesn't mean God exists or doesn't exist. Understanding things, like volcanoes, earthquakes, asteroids, nebulas, viruses, cell functions, gravity, electronic synapses, doesn't stand in opposition to the Bible or religion in general.

So in the end, we still have no evidence that God doesn't exist, meaning taking that position requires faith. You might think that is a better path or a better approach or whatever, but you still must exercise faith to hold that view. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Exactly. Gods are a human condition. We've invented them from the beginning to explain the unexplained. Native Hawaiians didnt know why lava came out of the volcano so they invented Palai(sp).

Or perhaps we all have a sense that there is indeed a higher being and attributed the unknown to that being.

We have science and physics that teach us about the universe. We have an okay understanding of how it works. We have scientific provable reason for all the plagues and we know its impossible for people to live hundreds of years.

Science and physics help us to understand how things work in an ordered world. Without order and predictable outcomes we would not be able to conduct science and understand physics or how things work. Just because we can understand how something works absolutely does not mean there was no creator. It makes sense that a creator would have created a world with rules and order so that the world can function, just like we have intelligent people who design machines and computers to function and run with a set of predictable rules. I don't understand them all but that doesn't mean they aren't there and that they weren't created. God created the weather to function with principles of physics and meteorology that we have been able to discover a small amount of. He may not be up there throwing down lightning bolts like darts at a dartboard, but the world, physics, and principles He created allows weather to occur, thunderstorms to form, and lightening to stabilize the atmosphere. He may not be waving his hand to make a volcano erupt but they erupt based on a complex interaction of factors that are part of the make up of our planet that He would have created, one that must run on certain rules and principles.

You express a lot of faith in science and the progression of science.

We know when theres something that doesnt add up they tell you not to trust in your own understanding and just believe anyways. They tell you if your prayers arent answered that it's okay because god works in mysterious ways.

I don't think the main reason to pray is to pray for things or to "get our prayers answered." God is not a cosmic genie. I think the main reasons for prayer are to build a relationship with God, learn more about His Nature, grow in our understanding of ourselves and our place in this world and among our fellow man, and open the way for God's nature (Holy Spirit) to work in our hearts and remake us. It is fine to ask for things and want an "answer" but just like small children, we don't always get what we ask for, what we want or what we we think we want, and often the answer is no.

Its mind control.

Some thoughts.

 

[SETNwx]

The more we learn about the universe and how it works, the less A God Concept becomes useful or realistic. Simple probability argument. A pure deterministic universe was shown to be full of holes after quantum mechanics. Really the only modern hope for 'God' is that the Universe is somehow a Massive 'Computer' Simulation. With that Highest computer being 'God'. That is, unless you want to entertain less than omnipotent gods.

 

[frazdaddy]

The more we learn about the universe and how it works, the less A God Concept becomes useful or realistic. Simple probability argument. A pure deterministic universe was shown to be full of holes after quantum mechanics. Really the only modern hope for 'God' is that the Universe is somehow a Massive 'Computer' Simulation. With that Highest computer being 'God'. That is, unless you want to entertain less than omnipotent gods.

Ok because I'm bored, Who/What built that computer?

 

[Downeastnc]

Ok because I'm bored, Who/What built that computer?

Another computer obviously sheeesh....thus we fall into the god paradox.....its turtles all the way down.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

The more we learn about the universe and how it works, the less A God Concept becomes useful or realistic. Simple probability argument. A pure deterministic universe was shown to be full of holes after quantum mechanics. Really the only modern hope for 'God' is that the Universe is somehow a Massive 'Computer' Simulation. With that Highest computer being 'God'. That is, unless you want to entertain less than omnipotent gods.

I couldn't disagree more. Just because we can learn about how something works doesn't mean it wasn't created. I didn't make my computer and don't know much about the circuitry or software, but I could study and learn about it. Learning more about it would not take away any evidence that intelligence was necessary for it to exist; in fact, just the opposite. The more I learn about the intricacies and the complexities, the more it points to intelligence being needed for it to exist. Just because we have a good understanding of the physical laws that lead to lightning it does not mean there is no God. Complexity, order, physical laws, predictable outcomes, and our ability to learn and know things all point to intelligence, not a random chance of incomprehensible odds.