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Misc All Things Religious

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Shaggy said:
You're welcome. Your post is everything that is wrong with today's Christianity. Sandbar has been clear that he was struggling and that he took a big step with the therapy he underwent and how it's changed him and helped him and all you can do is tell him he is wrong.
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Weak. Sandbar asked for the discussion.
 
metwannabe said:
All I can do is try and pray but in the end

Phil. 2: 9-11 "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
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It's just the words of men who are fallable and fallable men make for bad teachers. I can name some very bad teachers out there today even if they are kind hearted in their own minds and men back in biblical days were far more barbaric than we are today. Don't forget they nailed Jesus to a cross. That's who I am supposed to put my trust in over myself?
 
Sandbar said:
It's just the words of men who are fallable and fallable men make for bad teachers. I can name some very bad teachers out there today even if they are kind hearted in their own minds and men back in biblical days were far more barbaric than we are today. Don't forget they nailed Jesus to a cross. That's who I am supposed to put my trust in over myself?
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I guess my question would be can we stipulate that God exists or not? If the answer is no, then there's not really much to discuss at the end of the day. And I don't mean a feeling or a state of being or a meditative moment. I mean an actual, real entity - God.
 
Sandbar said:
But you serve him out of fear. Yes you absolutely do. You fear hell. You fear not seeing your loved ones after they are gone. You have never met me and you fear I'm not going to heaven because I don't think exactly like Christianity demands we do. Have you ever been close to death or had a divine experience in your life? I'm not talking god hearing your prayers or being beside a loved one as they pass but an experience that was so powerful that it had the ability to actually transform you? I have had that experience and it is profound and powerful!
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Not being judgmental, but I have a question. Did the guy who supposedly died and went to hell and come back have a divine experience or the kid who came back from heaven? Or the people who have communicated with the dead, or angels or demons. Or the people who were abducted and probed by aliens? Did Mohammed have a divine experience or Joseph Smith? Which experience is correct?
 
Arcc said:
Not being judgmental, but I have a question. Did the guy who supposedly died and went to hell and come back have a divine experience or the kid who came back from heaven? Or the people who have communicated with the dead, or angels or demons. Or the people who were abducted and probed by aliens? Did Mohammed have a divine experience or Joseph Smith? Which experience is correct?
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I don’t think I understand your question? It sounds like you yourself are wondering if you picked the right belief or not. Though I don’t think that’s what you are saying
 
Rain Cold said:
I guess my question would be can we stipulate that God exists or not? If the answer is no, then there's not really much to discuss at the end of the day. And I don't mean a feeling or a state of being or a meditative moment. I mean an actual, real entity - God.
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So what would God as a real entity appear as? A man?
 
Sandbar said:
So what would God as a real entity appear as? A man?
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God is everywhere, in my mind we are a part of god. Gods domain is one, it’s everything and we live in it and are a part of it. Therefore God is everywhere. God is definitely not just a man.
 
Arcc said:
Not being judgmental, but I have a question. Did the guy who supposedly died and went to hell and come back have a divine experience or the kid who came back from heaven? Or the people who have communicated with the dead, or angels or demons. Or the people who were abducted and probed by aliens? Did Mohammed have a divine experience or Joseph Smith? Which experience is correct?
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I can't answer for someone else divine experience. There is no way. I could tell you about mine. Am I right? How would you even know? I'm not that powerful. I mean there are millions of these experiences
 
LickWx said:
God is everywhere, in my mind we are a part of god. Gods domain is one, it’s everything and we live in it and are a part of it. Therefore God is everywhere. God is definitely not just a man.
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Absolutely! Everything in this universe manifest itself but it it's all the same thing. Light, frequency, vibration, the creator. We all go back to source
 
LickWx said:
I don’t think I understand your question? It sounds like you yourself are wondering if you picked the right belief or not. Though I don’t think that’s what you are saying
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My question is what makes an experience one has right and valid. Even among Christians individual experiences vary greatly. People around the world, Kings, religions and even Christians have used individual experiences to do things; good or bad, fight battles, marry certain people, ect and so on. Are all of these divine experiences and thus should be trusted for one’s direction?
 
Sandbar said:
I can't answer for someone else divine experience. There is no way. I could tell you about mine. Am I right? How would you even know? I'm not that powerful. I mean there are millions of these experiences
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Like I said, I’m not gonna argue a point, so you agree that arguing politics and the happenings of any people on the earth is pretty much pointless?
 
Arcc said:
My question is what makes an experience one has right and valid. Even among Christians individual experiences vary greatly. People around the world, Kings, religions and even Christians have used individual experiences to do things; good or bad, fight battles, marry certain people, ect and so on. Are all of these divine experiences and thus should be trusted for one’s direction?
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I suppose, but the difference is sandbar isn’t trying to take his divine experience and convince others that his divine experience must be taken as truth by all. Nor is he promising eternal condemnation or even salvation, he is only expressing what has brought him peace.
 
LickWx said:
I suppose, but the difference is sandbar isn’t trying to take his divine experience and convince others that his divine experience must be taken as truth by all. Nor is he promising eternal condemnation or even salvation, he is only expressing what has brought him peace.
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This is true, but without actual truth, none of this matters. It doesn’t matter if he is expressing peacefully or threatening to kill us for not understanding or whatever point he wants to make. It doesn’t matter if I care or not. Our political forum is no doubt a complete waste of time that our worthless lives have been allotted. He, you and I have the right to believe what we want and what matters, but the abstract subjective truth of people fascinates me.
 
Arcc said:
My question is what makes an experience one has right and valid. Even among Christians individual experiences vary greatly. People around the world, Kings, religions and even Christians have used individual experiences to do things; good or bad, fight battles, marry certain people, ect and so on. Are all of these divine experiences and thus should be trusted for one’s direction?
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Imagine a man sitting on the tallest mountain alone, meditating with the wind blowing and silence from outside distractions. Down below in the valley are the organized religions arguing who is more right in their dogma. Shouting at each other, cursing each other, shaking fist and pointing fingers at one another. Longing to continue the argument until he wins! Just utter chaos. That is EGO. The man on the mountain sits in quiet alone with his thoughts because he now has control over that same ego. Is either wrong? Is the man on the mountain wrong and the valley dwellers right? Who do you think is more at peace within his spiritual journey?
 
Sandbar said:
Imagine a man sitting on the tallest mountain alone, meditating with the wind blowing and silence from outside distractions. Down below in the valley are the organized religions arguing who is more right in their dogma. Shouting at each other, cursing each other, shaking fist and pointing fingers at one another. Longing to continue the argument until he wins! Just utter chaos. That is EGO. The man on the mountain sits in quiet alone with his thoughts because he now has control over that same ego. Is either wrong? Is the man on the mountain wrong and the valley dwellers right? Who do you think is more at peace within his spiritual journey?
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Maybe those in the valley in chaos were once on the mountain in meditation and found out that chaos is peace and the man currently on the mountain is just behind in spiritual growth.
 
Arcc said:
Maybe those in the valley in chaos were once on the mountain in meditation and found out that chaos is peace and the man currently on the mountain is just behind in spiritual growth.
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I don't think that's the case but sure why not. Enjoy the chaos. I certainly won't sit in judgement if you do!
 
Arcc said:
Oh I’m definitely not in or for chaos. However very few start out wanting it.
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I'm sure they don't but it's in their very nature to do so. If I had a jellybean for every time I sat in judgement when I followed dogma I would have a very large bowl of jellybeans. We had a saying in the Teams that stress is a ruck full of bricks and you control the bricks. When I left the group thinking to forge my own spiritual identity that ruck got a lot lighter. My way isn't for everyone but it's personal to me only and even though ego is still a battle I fight I have the mindset to move forward and improve as a human where I didn't have that before
 
Sandbar said:
So what would God as a real entity appear as? A man?
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I would imagine that God could take whatever form he wants. But it is a reality that God is a real being, entity (or whatever label you want to use to define "being") or it isn't. Let's not get tangled up in semantics. Can we stipulate God exists as a real entity or not?
 
Rain Cold said:
I would imagine that God could take whatever form he wants. But it is a reality that God is a real being, entity (or whatever label you want to use to define "being") or it isn't. Let's not get tangled up in semantics. Can we stipulate God exists as a real entity or not?
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God, creator, divine one, absolutely. Use whatever term you prefer but yes I believe in a creator of all things in the universe
 
I think God can be found in anything but the question is regarding atonement for sins, and using God's power to become a better person and to overcome. Many churches preach about hell, which is important, but they don't preach about bettering themselves here on earth to make a difference using the power given to them as a Christian, And that in itself leaves a lot of people seeking.
 
Bham 99 said:
I think God can be found in anything but the question is regarding atonement for sins, and using God's power to become a better person and to overcome. Many churches preach about hell, which is important, but they don't preach about bettering themselves here on earth to make a difference using the power given to them as a Christian, And that in itself leaves a lot of people seeking.
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The best way to control people is through fear and that's just a simple fact. People seek when they decide they no longer desire to be controlled by and led by that fear. That's when your true awakening begins. When you start focusing on your "personal" spiritual path you begin to see the man made influences in religious dogma. Not saying there is no value in the bible because there certainly is but if you allow a book of any kind that was written , interpreted, chopped up by and YES influenced by fallible humans over centuries to determine your fait, you are opening yourself up to a lifetime of agony. We won't be here when it happens but there will be a period in human history where there is no longer religion of any kind. That's when men like me will no longer have to put a bullet in the head of another human to solve differences of opinion
 
For me and ill keep this way shorter than I could. Late in my college years I wondered if there really was a God. Personally and out of curiousity, He revelled himself to me in multiple ways. Not exclusive to just these examples, but to name a few one was through the study of anatomy and physiology beleive it or not, another through the study of astronomy/atmosopheric sciences. Out Fishing alone. Just to many ways that are so unique, that there no doubt had to be a creator. For example, Just the fact the sun hangs in space,like earth at the perfect distance where we dont freeze or burn up. The fact theres water and it not only hydrates me, but also gives those fish I was trying to catch life,which in turn provide food for me. The unigue way the water was there in a mtn stream to begin with. From Rain,then run off into an ocean and that ocean helps juice the atmosphere to make more rain,keep that mtn stream suppplied and runing,fish habitat. Etc.
Just to well designed, just like our anatomy for there not to be a God,divine creator.

Once I came to this conclusion, without any doubt I thought if a an almighty God created me, he has to have a reason,purpose for it. Surely he would want to reveal himself to me,all mankind and tell me his reason why.
Well that's exactly what he did. Through those expierences listed above he had revealed himself to me and he gave me a clear as day reason why through his word the bible. He wanted a relationship with me. Being a holy God, the begining and the end, he did something to make that way possible. He Bankrupted heaven of its most richest possession , his son, and made a way, FREE GIFT, so that I with my own free-will , could choose to follow him and make him Lord of my life. Or choose not to and keep myself as the captain of my ship. I could never give up my son as a sacrifice for yall or anyone. I cant think of any other way that comes close to showing me just how much God loves anyone of us.
I hate, have trouble typing. A whole lot easier just talking in order to explain or as we attempt to do here,have conversation. My prayer is everyone could expierence the peace and joy that comes from having a relationship (not religion) with God. If it never snows again and Trump loses, gets locked up (which both are highly likely). Ill still be just as content, because of that free gift. It last forever. Life is a vapor, so all of us owe it to ourselves individually to make 100% sure you know that you know.
 
NCSNOW said:
For me and ill keep this way shorter than I could. Late in my college years I wondered if there really was a God. Personally and out of curiousity, He revelled himself to me in multiple ways. Not exclusive to just these examples, but to name a few one was through the study of anatomy and physiology beleive it or not, another through the study of astronomy/atmosopheric sciences. Out Fishing alone. Just to many ways that are so unique, that there no doubt had to be a creator. For example, Just the fact the sun hangs in space,like earth at the perfect distance where we dont freeze or burn up. The fact theres water and it not only hydrates me, but also gives those fish I was trying to catch life,which in turn provide food for me. The unigue way the water was there in a mtn stream to begin with. From Rain,then run off into an ocean and that ocean helps juice the atmosphere to make more rain,keep that mtn stream suppplied and runing,fish habitat. Etc.
Just to well designed, just like our anatomy for there not to be a God,divine creator.

Once I came to this conclusion, without any doubt I thought if a an almighty God created me, he has to have a reason,purpose for it. Surely he would want to reveal himself to me,all mankind and tell me his reason why.
Well that's exactly what he did. Through those expierences listed above he had revealed himself to me and he gave me a clear as day reason why through his word the bible. He wanted a relationship with me. Being a holy God, the begining and the end, he did something to make that way possible. He Bankrupted heaven of its most richest possession , his son, and made a way, FREE GIFT, so that I with my own free-will , could choose to follow him and make him Lord of my life. Or choose not to and keep myself as the captain of my ship. I could never give up my son as a sacrifice for yall or anyone. I cant think of any other way that comes close to showing me just how much God loves anyone of us.
I hate, have trouble typing. A whole lot easier just talking in order to explain or as we attempt to do here,have conversation. My prayer is everyone could expierence the peace and joy that comes from having a relationship (not religion) with God. If it never snows again and Trump loses, gets locked up (which both are highly likely). Ill still be just as content, because of that free gift. It last forever. Life is a vapor, so all of us owe it to ourselves individually to make 100% sure you know that you know.
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I have that now 100%. Some of you pray I meditate. I don't follow anyone however. I'm not made to follow anyone or anything ever again in my life. Some people need to be led to feel safe or to feel connected and there is nothing wrong with that at all. The religious path is different from my spiritual path but both end up rewarded whatever you manifest that to be. When I did walk the path of religion I thought my way was the only way. I was right and everybody else blind because they couldn't see it. At that time I didn't realize how closed my eyes really were. I was arrogant, egotistical and hypocritical when it came to religion and like most people who follow a dogma I never walked away from a debate the loser which is exactly what ego is. This was me not you or anyone else so we aren't misunderstanding my words. When I finally accepted my break away from organized religion the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders. I'm super happy it works for so many of you but I can't lie to myself or fake it and be true to my soul. Worshiping or meditation is only pure if you yourself believe in it. If it's forced or done out of fear it's not the connection I want at all
 
NCSNOW said:
For me and ill keep this way shorter than I could. Late in my college years I wondered if there really was a God. Personally and out of curiousity, He revelled himself to me in multiple ways. Not exclusive to just these examples, but to name a few one was through the study of anatomy and physiology beleive it or not, another through the study of astronomy/atmosopheric sciences. Out Fishing alone. Just to many ways that are so unique, that there no doubt had to be a creator. For example, Just the fact the sun hangs in space,like earth at the perfect distance where we dont freeze or burn up. The fact theres water and it not only hydrates me, but also gives those fish I was trying to catch life,which in turn provide food for me. The unigue way the water was there in a mtn stream to begin with. From Rain,then run off into an ocean and that ocean helps juice the atmosphere to make more rain,keep that mtn stream suppplied and runing,fish habitat. Etc.
Just to well designed, just like our anatomy for there not to be a God,divine creator.

Once I came to this conclusion, without any doubt I thought if a an almighty God created me, he has to have a reason,purpose for it. Surely he would want to reveal himself to me,all mankind and tell me his reason why.
Well that's exactly what he did. Through those expierences listed above he had revealed himself to me and he gave me a clear as day reason why through his word the bible. He wanted a relationship with me. Being a holy God, the begining and the end, he did something to make that way possible. He Bankrupted heaven of its most richest possession , his son, and made a way, FREE GIFT, so that I with my own free-will , could choose to follow him and make him Lord of my life. Or choose not to and keep myself as the captain of my ship. I could never give up my son as a sacrifice for yall or anyone. I cant think of any other way that comes close to showing me just how much God loves anyone of us.
I hate, have trouble typing. A whole lot easier just talking in order to explain or as we attempt to do here,have conversation. My prayer is everyone could expierence the peace and joy that comes from having a relationship (not religion) with God. If it never snows again and Trump loses, gets locked up (which both are highly likely). Ill still be just as content, because of that free gift. It last forever. Life is a vapor, so all of us owe it to ourselves individually to make 100% sure you know that you know.
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Awesome testimony there NCSNOW!
 
So what do you guys believe happens to people who aren't Christian? How about people cut off from the world who don't know what christiananity even is?
 
Bham 99 said:
I think God can be found in anything but the question is regarding atonement for sins, and using God's power to become a better person and to overcome. Many churches preach about hell, which is important, but they don't preach about bettering themselves here on earth to make a difference using the power given to them as a Christian, And that in itself leaves a lot of people seeking.
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Isn’t the churches message simply “ man is flawed from day one of birth, no matter what man does he will be flawed therefore only Jesus can save him” … to me this message is an excuse for bad behavior and lazy. I don’t need a man to save me, I save my own self through my own character .
 
Sandbar said:
So what do you guys believe happens to people who aren't Christian? How about people cut off from the world who don't know what christiananity even is?
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This always blows my mind… so say I kill somebody and that person did not accept Jesus… they go to hell right? What if 2 years after the murder I become the most holy Christian man there was. So I the murderer go to heaven while the person I killed who didn’t accept Jesus goes to hell? Where is the Justice in that?
 
LickWx said:
This always blows my mind… so say I kill somebody and that person did not accept Jesus… they go to hell right? What if 2 years after the murder I become the most holy Christian man there was. So I the murderer go to heaven while the person I killed who didn’t accept Jesus goes to hell? Where is the Justice in that?
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Well, I appreciate those questions, because they're not easy questions to work through. The reason is because we don't know all there is to know. We know what has been revealed to us. And we know what we know from a human perspective. If you stipulate that God exists and that he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, then you have to also allow for the fact that there is much more he understands and knows and has ordained than any of us will ever be capable of knowing and understanding. You don't understand the justice of the world as a little child, but that doesn't stop justice from existing anyway.

The best I can offer beyond that is that the Bible says that we are without excuse and that salvation is available to all who truly seek it. It doesn't matter if a man is murdered, dies from a heart attack, or dies in a car crash. If he is not saved, he is going to hell. In fact, Jesus talked about hell more than heaven.

Of course, all of this is predicated on the assumptions above -- that God exists and his word is available to us. If you don't believe either of those things, there's no point in exploring any of this, except to point out the foolishness of it all (if that is your view)...to which I would argue that you (and others here have already done). So why bother wasting anymore time on it? That would seem like a more foolish endeavor to me -- wasting time on something you don't believe in as opposed to spending time on something you actually do believe in.
 
Rain Cold said:
Well, I appreciate those questions, because they're not easy questions to work through. The reason is because we don't know all there is to know. We know what has been revealed to us. And we know what we know from a human perspective. If you stipulate that God exists and that he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, then you have to also allow for the fact that there is much more he understands and knows and has ordained than any of us will ever be capable of knowing and understanding. You don't understand the justice of the world as a little child, but that doesn't stop justice from existing anyway.

The best I can offer beyond that is that the Bible says that we are without excuse and that salvation is available to all who truly seek it. It doesn't matter if a man is murdered, dies from a heart attack, or dies in a car crash. If he is not saved, he is going to hell. In fact, Jesus talked about hell more than heaven.

Of course, all of this is predicated on the assumptions above -- that God exists and his word is available to us. If you don't believe either of those things, there's no point in exploring any of this, except to point out the foolishness of it all (if that is your view)...to which I would argue that you (and others here have already done). So why bother wasting anymore time on it? That would seem like a more foolish endeavor to me -- wasting time on something you don't believe in as opposed to spending time on something you actually do believe in.
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I want to get this straight so I'm not misunderstanding. It's a waste of everyone's time or just the Christian's time if we don't all believe the same or as you do? We both believe in a creator. We both believe in an afterlife. I tend to believe we share a very similar moral code. It's not worth your time to humbly discuss slightly different spiritual paths unless it passes through the christian only filter? I fully accept every "believer" in this threads path. 100% wouldn't change a single thing for you and wouldn't even suggest you follow me but I think we are all worth listening to and accepting. I thought this is what a religious thread was for?
 
Sandbar said:
I want to get this straight so I'm not misunderstanding. It's a waste of everyone's time or just the Christian's time if we don't all believe the same or as you do? We both believe in a creator. We both believe in an afterlife. I tend to believe we share a very similar moral code. It's not worth your time to humbly discuss slightly different spiritual paths unless it passes through the christian only filter? I fully accept every "believer" in this threads path. 100% wouldn't change a single thing for you and wouldn't even suggest you follow me but I think we are all worth listening to and accepting. I thought this is what a religious thread was for?
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No, I think you missed what I was saying or I wasn't clear. If you think that a position I hold is foolish, but I still continue to believe in my position, but you keep telling me over and over it's foolish, then wouldn't you agree that you're wasting your time?

I personally don't agree with your position at all. But I already told you that. And out of respect for you, I don't keep repeating my belief that your belief is ill-founded. I'd rather spend my time doing something useful, rather than telling you that you are wrong over and over. That's essentially what I am saying.

And by the way, as an aside, you also don't hear me going out of my way to bash the beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. I'll weigh in when appropriate, but as a rule, you see a lot more non-Christians in these threads saying things like, "See that's why I'm not a Christian or that's what's wrong with Christians, or why we shouldn't elect Christians" or whatever. I won't say I've never made a comment myself, but it's not something I seek to do. Everyone can believe what they want. It's a free country.
 
Rain Cold said:
No, I think you missed what I was saying or I wasn't clear. If you think that a position I hold is foolish, but I still continue to believe in my position, but you keep telling me over and over it's foolish, then wouldn't you agree that you're wasting your time?

I personally don't agree with your position at all. But I already told you that. And out of respect for you, I don't keep repeating my belief that your belief is ill-founded. I'd rather spend my time doing something useful, rather than telling you that you are wrong over and over. That's essentially what I am saying.

And by the way, as an aside, you also don't hear me going out of my way to bash the beliefs of Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc. I'll weigh in when appropriate, but as a rule, you see a lot more non-Christians in these threads saying things like, "See that's why I'm not a Christian or that's what's wrong with Christians, or why we shouldn't elect Christians" or whatever. I won't say I've never made a comment myself, but it's not something I seek to do. Everyone can believe what they want. It's a free country.
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I hope you didn't take my reasons for choosing a different path as retribution on you for sticking with that path? That's not what this is about at all. If my journey doesn't interest you in any way I fully understand. Maybe someone else will gain something from it.......all good
 
Psalm 145 is one of my favorites and answers some questions raised above. Whole lot more scripture provides answers to these questions as well. Passing along. I enjoy reading discussion.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 145 - New International Version

Psalm 145 - A psalm of praise. Of David. I will exalt you, my God the King; I will praise your name for ever and ever. Every day I will praise you and extol your name for ever and ever. Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. One generation commends your...
www.biblegateway.com www.biblegateway.com
 
Rain Cold said:
Well, I appreciate those questions, because they're not easy questions to work through. The reason is because we don't know all there is to know. We know what has been revealed to us. And we know what we know from a human perspective. If you stipulate that God exists and that he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, then you have to also allow for the fact that there is much more he understands and knows and has ordained than any of us will ever be capable of knowing and understanding. You don't understand the justice of the world as a little child, but that doesn't stop justice from existing anyway.

The best I can offer beyond that is that the Bible says that we are without excuse and that salvation is available to all who truly seek it. It doesn't matter if a man is murdered, dies from a heart attack, or dies in a car crash. If he is not saved, he is going to hell. In fact, Jesus talked about hell more than heaven.

Of course, all of this is predicated on the assumptions above -- that God exists and his word is available to us. If you don't believe either of those things, there's no point in exploring any of this, except to point out the foolishness of it all (if that is your view)...to which I would argue that you (and others here have already done). So why bother wasting anymore time on it? That would seem like a more foolish endeavor to me -- wasting time on something you don't believe in as opposed to spending time on something you actually do believe in.
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My qualm with that is this, the murderer robbed the man he killed of the chance to give himself to Jesus, he robbed him of the chance of salvation. So why does the murderer get salvation and not the man he robbed salvation from? It does not seem just at all. We can take it to the most extreme example, imagine if Bin Laden accepted Jesus before he died... many of the thousands killed in 9/11 may not have accepted Jesus but the man who masterminded their death is now going to heaven... how about Hitler? It seems to me then perhaps the Christian response to this question is God knows best, and man's idea of justice is incomplete so it's best not to question it too much. I disagree with that notion personally. If someone wronged me I would hope I got justice in this life or the next.

Also, speaking of hell more than heaven speaks to @Sandbar point that fear is the motivating factor.
 
LickWx said:
My qualm with that is this, the murderer robbed the man he killed of the chance to give himself to Jesus, he robbed him of the chance of salvation. So why does the murderer get salvation and not the man he robbed salvation from? It does not seem just at all. We can take it to the most extreme example, imagine if Bin Laden accepted Jesus before he died... many of the thousands killed in 9/11 may not have accepted Jesus but the man who masterminded their death is now going to heaven... how about Hitler? It seems to me then perhaps the Christian response to this question is God knows best, and man's idea of justice is incomplete so it's best not to question it too much. I disagree with that notion personally. If someone wronged me I would hope I got justice in this life or the next.

Also, speaking of hell more than heaven speaks to @Sandbar point that fear is the motivating factor.
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I vowed when I began this spiritual journey I would shed labels and cease to judge. It's a constant battle as a few have seen in the political thread but I inch closer to my goal every day. The divine is supposed to be all loving not all fearing. I saw a quote from a Woody Harrelson interview the other day regarding man's influence on the construction of the bible and I agree with him. I never knew his religious history until watching the interview but it was enlightening for sure
 
LickWx said:
My qualm with that is this, the murderer robbed the man he killed of the chance to give himself to Jesus, he robbed him of the chance of salvation. So why does the murderer get salvation and not the man he robbed salvation from? It does not seem just at all. We can take it to the most extreme example, imagine if Bin Laden accepted Jesus before he died... many of the thousands killed in 9/11 may not have accepted Jesus but the man who masterminded their death is now going to heaven... how about Hitler? It seems to me then perhaps the Christian response to this question is God knows best, and man's idea of justice is incomplete so it's best not to question it too much. I disagree with that notion personally. If someone wronged me I would hope I got justice in this life or the next.

Also, speaking of hell more than heaven speaks to @Sandbar point that fear is the motivating factor.
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But that man did have a chance at salvation before he was murdered. We look at the now and in physical terms, God operates in the eternal and spritual realm. That does not mean he doesn't care about us physically but more his concern is eternal, this life is only a vapor of time and his priority is our spiritual healing and salvation.
Now back to your example: RC was spot on byw but I just want to add. If one commits a murder or crime or atrocity or sin of any kind and then becomes a christian, they are not exempt from the consequences of their actions here, but can find eternal salvation through Christ. Man commits murder, he is convicted and then must suffer those consequences, whether life in prison or death, but becomes a Christian. He must still face the punishment here, his salvation does not absolve him of that and he still must face the consequences in this world. Regardless of our "level" of sin, we must face the consequences of our actions but still can be forgiven and given eternal salvation. As far as the man who was robbed of salvation, none of us are promised tomorrow or the next minute, that is why we must not wait to become saved. We never know when it will be too late, that doesn't change whether death by evil deeds or natural causes.
 
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