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Misc All Things Religious

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@Sandbar I'm curious about something: an individual rapes and kills another, what happens to them when they die? They had their own spiritual journey, their own dogma, they just transcend to another dimension and hopefully are a better person there? Is that justice?
 
metwannabe said:
@Sandbar I'm curious about something: an individual rapes and kills another, what happens to them when they die? They had their own spiritual journey, their own dogma, they just transcend to another dimension and hopefully are a better person there? Is that justice?
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I don't believe in judgement of any kind nor justice in the afterlife. I don't know what happens beyond the light which is as far as I went but I no longer fear it if that makes sense. Beyond the light lies heaven, nirvana, I don't like labels but I no longer felt self I just existed in this light. You feel this divine connection to everything that has ever been or ever will be but you are the light and it's complete bliss like you've never felt. It's almost so powerful of a feeling that you you aren't meant to understand it but there is further to go. My experience was very similar to a near death experience but those people go beyond where I went. I don't believe in death but that you just transcend. I'm not really sure how I feel about reincarnation yet but that's part of my journey. I don't have a manual anymore and the answers I still seek have yet to reveal themselves to me but as I advance in my meditation I feel they will come to me. The beauty of all this is that it's my personal experience not someone else experience
 
LickWx said:
My qualm with that is this, the murderer robbed the man he killed of the chance to give himself to Jesus, he robbed him of the chance of salvation. So why does the murderer get salvation and not the man he robbed salvation from? It does not seem just at all. We can take it to the most extreme example, imagine if Bin Laden accepted Jesus before he died... many of the thousands killed in 9/11 may not have accepted Jesus but the man who masterminded their death is now going to heaven... how about Hitler? It seems to me then perhaps the Christian response to this question is God knows best, and man's idea of justice is incomplete so it's best not to question it too much. I disagree with that notion personally. If someone wronged me I would hope I got justice in this life or the next.

Also, speaking of hell more than heaven speaks to @Sandbar point that fear is the motivating factor.
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Your opening sentence confounds your whole argument. Why preclude the possibility, even certainty, that the murdered man would have had the opportunity to be saved prior to his death. What's the age cutoff? How about the person who died of natural causes prior to the age of the murdered man. What if he would have been murdered 2 years earlier? My argument is God gives people opportunity for the time they are here.
 
Rain Cold said:
Well, I appreciate those questions, because they're not easy questions to work through. The reason is because we don't know all there is to know. We know what has been revealed to us. And we know what we know from a human perspective. If you stipulate that God exists and that he is all powerful, all knowing, and omnipresent, then you have to also allow for the fact that there is much more he understands and knows and has ordained than any of us will ever be capable of knowing and understanding. You don't understand the justice of the world as a little child, but that doesn't stop justice from existing anyway.

The best I can offer beyond that is that the Bible says that we are without excuse and that salvation is available to all who truly seek it. It doesn't matter if a man is murdered, dies from a heart attack, or dies in a car crash. If he is not saved, he is going to hell. In fact, Jesus talked about hell more than heaven.

Of course, all of this is predicated on the assumptions above -- that God exists and his word is available to us. If you don't believe either of those things, there's no point in exploring any of this, except to point out the foolishness of it all (if that is your view)...to which I would argue that you (and others here have already done). So why bother wasting anymore time on it? That would seem like a more foolish endeavor to me -- wasting time on something you don't believe in as opposed to spending time on something you actually do believe in.
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But I think we know what's logical and just. In the scenario given there's nothing just about it. It's one of the key things that helps drive atheist to believe what we do.
 
Rain Cold said:
Your opening sentence confounds your whole argument. Why preclude the possibility, even certainty, that the murdered man would have had the opportunity to be saved prior to his death. What's the age cutoff? How about the person who died of natural causes prior to the age of the murdered man. What if he would have been murdered 2 years earlier? My argument is God gives people opportunity for the time they are here.
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It still is not fair for the man who was murdered to serve an eternity in hell while his killer lives in heaven. I mean shoot, I can take a gamble on life then. I can hope I'll live to the ripe old age of 80 and until I'm 79 I can spend my years in depravity, then spend my last year a faithful man. I do believe in a God and that God is fair and just. Acceptance of him does not override your behaviors in this world.

God gives people the opportunity in this life to do good, not just submit to him. Submitting to God is fine and all but it will not absolve you of facing justice for your actions. I hate that the murderer never faces consequences just because he accepted salvation.
 
Shaggy said:
But I think we know what's logical and just. In the scenario given there's nothing just about it. It's one of the key things that helps drive atheist to believe what we do.
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If you make that argument, you also have to agree that a 3 year old child understands as much as adult with 50 years of life experience. Because that's the correct analogy.
 
LickWx said:
It still is not fair for the man who was murdered to serve an eternity in hell while his killer lives in heaven. I mean shoot, I can take a gamble on life then. I can hope I'll live to the ripe old age of 80 and until I'm 79 I can spend my years in depravity, then spend my last year a faithful man. I do believe in a God and that God is fair and just. Acceptance of him does not override your behaviors in this world.

God gives people the opportunity in this life to do good, not just submit to him. Submitting to God is fine and all but it will not absolve you of facing justice for your actions. I hate that the murderer never faces consequences just because he accepted salvation.
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Is it given to you to decide both the morality of all creation and what is just and fair in the scope of eternity?

I suppose any one of us, depending on mood, situation, upbringing, culture, country of origin, and a whole host of other circumstances that mold our thinking could decide what is just and right for any situation. If that is the case, then what is the standard?

The answer is, there isn't one. What is justice to you might not be to me. We do not know the mind of God. You and I do not understand reality or eternity or the intricacies of creation the way God does to even come close being able to render judgment on anything. We are in no position to decide what justice is for all of creation. That is humility. Deciding for yourself what is right and fair and designing God in that image is self-worship and ego. And that's it.
 
This looks like a great discussion and I'd like to join more when I can. Right now I'm out of town and only had a moment to glance through. There are some good, but very common questions here, on fairness, people who haven't heard, etc. There are countless speakers and even whole books written about these very questions with a lot of great insight and eloquence. If you guys asking these questions really want to look into it check out C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, The Problem with Pain, or Is God a Moral Monster by Paul Copan.

Some good speakers include John Lennox, Frank Turek, Paul Copan, Sean McDowell, and many others. They really dig into these questions in much more detail than can be done in a forum.

Here's a quick hit snippet from Turek:


A longer peice from Copan:
 
LickWx said:
My qualm with that is this, the murderer robbed the man he killed of the chance to give himself to Jesus, he robbed him of the chance of salvation. So why does the murderer get salvation and not the man he robbed salvation from? It does not seem just at all. We can take it to the most extreme example, imagine if Bin Laden accepted Jesus before he died... many of the thousands killed in 9/11 may not have accepted Jesus but the man who masterminded their death is now going to heaven... how about Hitler? It seems to me then perhaps the Christian response to this question is God knows best, and man's idea of justice is incomplete so it's best not to question it too much. I disagree with that notion personally. If someone wronged me I would hope I got justice in this life or the next.

Also, speaking of hell more than heaven speaks to @Sandbar point that fear is the motivating factor.
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We as human beings put a scale on sin. We think that there are degrees of sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin. Everyone is guilty and needs salvation. So, who are we to say that a murderer doesn't have the right to be forgiven?
 
Cad Wedge NC said:
We as human beings put a scale on sin. We think that there are degrees of sin. In God's eyes, sin is sin. Everyone is guilty and needs salvation. So, who are we to say that a murderer doesn't have the right to be forgiven?
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No that’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is it sure is unfair for a murderer to get off free while their victim suffers
 
Cad Wedge NC said:
Yes, but they can't experience it fully and still remain an atheist.
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Gonna have to disagree, me and Shaggy were raised in the church, our grandfather was a preacher we grew up in it.

The Bible was and is instrumental in me leaving organized religion, it was me being unable to square all the things the Bible has in it that makes no sense that lead to me becoming athiest.
 
Rain Cold said:
Is it given to you to decide both the morality of all creation and what is just and fair in the scope of eternity?

I suppose any one of us, depending on mood, situation, upbringing, culture, country of origin, and a whole host of other circumstances that mold our thinking could decide what is just and right for any situation. If that is the case, then what is the standard?

The answer is, there isn't one. What is justice to you might not be to me. We do not know the mind of God. You and I do not understand reality or eternity or the intricacies of creation the way God does to even come close being able to render judgment on anything. We are in no position to decide what justice is for all of creation. That is humility. Deciding for yourself what is right and fair and designing God in that image is self-worship and ego. And that's it.
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Except you have provided a framework for justice, you say it is justice when you accept salvation. It is justice when a sinner gets salvation while his victims get eternal damnation even if they lived a righteous life.
 
Another thing about organized religion is this… it’s influenced by man and man is susceptible to corruption. Though, like I said earlier we are all a part of the same universe , a part of God, therefore I guess everything we do is divine in a way.
 
LickWx said:
Except you have provided a framework for justice, you say it is justice when you accept salvation. It is justice when a sinner gets salvation while his victims get eternal damnation even if they lived a righteous life.
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It's not about justice, it's about swearing fealty to God period.
 
Downeastnc said:
Gonna have to disagree, me and Shaggy were raised in the church, our grandfather was a preacher we grew up in it.

The Bible was and is instrumental in me leaving organized religion, it was me being unable to square all the things the Bible has in it that makes no sense that lead to me becoming athiest.
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Nobody knows. Someone from my school days ODed 2 times and actually died for a period of time. He said it was just like going to sleep and waking back up when they saved him. I myself am Agnostic.
 
Sandbar said:
I don't believe in judgement of any kind nor justice in the afterlife. I don't know what happens beyond the light which is as far as I went but I no longer fear it if that makes sense. Beyond the light lies heaven, nirvana, I don't like labels but I no longer felt self I just existed in this light. You feel this divine connection to everything that has ever been or ever will be but you are the light and it's complete bliss like you've never felt. It's almost so powerful of a feeling that you you aren't meant to understand it but there is further to go. My experience was very similar to a near death experience but those people go beyond where I went. I don't believe in death but that you just transcend. I'm not really sure how I feel about reincarnation yet but that's part of my journey. I don't have a manual anymore and the answers I still seek have yet to reveal themselves to me but as I advance in my meditation I feel they will come to me. The beauty of all this is that it's my personal experience not someone else experience
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There is no moral code, no reason for a moral code if what happens here has no bearing on the afterlife. If all we do is transcend from one dimension to the next what reason does anyone have to do what is right? In fact, how do we even define what is right? Our beliefs are so far apart it's probably futile to continue the discussion honestly
 
LickWx said:
Except you have provided a framework for justice, you say it is justice when you accept salvation. It is justice when a sinner gets salvation while his victims get eternal damnation even if they lived a righteous life.
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The best framework we have is the Bible. It's not my epiphany or idea.
 
LickWx said:
No that’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is it sure is unfair for a murderer to get off free while their victim suffers
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But they don't go free, their salvation, if it comes, does not absolve them of the consequences of their actions. They still receive their punishment here, but Jesus's sacrifice, his blood, covers all sin and is there for anyone who truly believes for eternal salvation. Your other point about living to be 80 and waiting till 79 to believe is ok but you aren't promised 80. You aren't promised 79, 78, 50, 20 or tomorrow and is a fools game to play.
 
metwannabe said:
There is no moral code, no reason for a moral code if what happens here has no bearing on the afterlife. If all we do is transcend from one dimension to the next what reason does anyone have to do what is right? In fact, how do we even define what is right? Our beliefs are so far apart it's probably futile to continue the discussion honestly
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This is nuts...so you don't do things like rape and murder only because you fear hell? Is this really what you think...this clip pretty much sums it up...Mr Asimov nails it here.

 
Downeastnc said:
This is nuts...so you don't do things like rape and murder only because you fear hell? Is this really what you think...this clip pretty much sums it up...Mr Asimov nails it here.

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Nope never said that, although fear of eternal separation from my heavenly father and eternity in hell is not something I want to endure. I don't rape or murder or do a lot of things because I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior, I'm filled with the holy spirit that guides me and corrects me when I falter. It's a desire to serve and please my God, it's why I strive to be perfect although I'm far from it
 
Downeastnc said:
This is nuts...so you don't do things like rape and murder only because you fear hell? Is this really what you think...this clip pretty much sums it up...Mr Asimov nails it here.

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However, if you knew hell existed wouldn't you want to avoid going? I accepted christ to avoid eternal damnation but I act as I do and strive to live righteousness not out of fear but to serve the one who saved me.
 
metwannabe said:
However, if you knew hell existed wouldn't you want to avoid going? I accepted christ to avoid eternal damnation but I act as I do and strive to live righteousness not out of fear but to serve the one who saved me.
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I don't think heaven or hell exist...fear of damnation is not why I am moral. Being a good human in not inclusive to being religious or a Christian...
 
metwannabe said:
But they don't go free, their salvation, if it comes, does not absolve them of the consequences of their actions. They still receive their punishment here, but Jesus's sacrifice, his blood, covers all sin and is there for anyone who truly believes for eternal salvation. Your other point about living to be 80 and waiting till 79 to believe is ok but you aren't promised 80. You aren't promised 79, 78, 50, 20 or tomorrow and is a fools game to play.
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It’s fools game to play but I sure can play it and win! What if they get no punishment in this life?
 
Downeastnc said:
I don't think heaven or hell exist...fear of damnation is not why I am moral. Being a good human in not inclusive to being religious or a Christian...
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Morals are derived from a divine creator, you don't have to believe it but it doesn't make it untrue.
 
LickWx said:
It’s fools game to play but I sure can play it and win! What if they get no punishment in this life?
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You win only if you truly believe and accept Jesus, just saying it doesn't do it. Punishment will find them. If they become true Believers they will not be able to live with that guilt and will suffer the consequences one way or another
 
LickWx said:
It’s fools game to play but I sure can play it and win! What if they get no punishment in this life?
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I said this earlier, but you either believe it or not. After a while the discussion boils down to "I'm right." "No you're not." "Yes I am." "No you're not."
 
Rain Cold said:
I said this earlier, but you either believe it or not. After a while the discussion boils down to "I'm right." "No you're not." "Yes I am." "No you're not."
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Yep. My downfall is trying to convince them of something they are far from believing. I don't want to give up but at the same time, the information is there, the gospel has been shared, it's up to the individual to accept or reject
 
metwannabe said:
Yep. My downfall is trying to convince them of something they are far from believing. I don't want to give up but at the same time, the information is there, the gospel has been shared, it's up to the individual to accept or reject
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Yes sir.
 
Rain Cold said:
I said this earlier, but you either believe it or not. After a while the discussion boils down to "I'm right." "No you're not." "Yes I am." "No you're not."
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It’s not right or wrong, I’m just not seeing your belief system add up. I’m trying to understand what you believe while also challenging it . I think we both understand we won’t change the others belief but I hope we understand each other better at the end
 
LickWx said:
It’s not right or wrong, I’m just not seeing your belief system add up. I’m trying to understand what you believe while also challenging it . I think we both understand we won’t change the others belief but I hope we understand each other better at the end
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What does Muhammad instruct to happen to sinners?
 
Trust me, if there were no consequences for my actions, I would enjoy every sin I could. Why live a conservative and dull life when you could be having so much more fun? Why live Godly if there is no God? These are the fundamental questions that make atheists look like the fools they really are. Those are not my words but the Bible's. "The fool hath said in his heart. There is no God." Psalms 53.1 and Psalms 14.1
 
metwannabe said:
Morals are derived from a divine creator, you don't have to believe it but it doesn't make it untrue.
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And where did you first learn about those morals? Your parents of course. Then they took you to church and your pastor taught you about the bible and you take it all in and you believe it in your heart 100% right? Did you believe everything you were being "taught" because you felt it or because you were scared of letting those people down? If you truly felt it that's awesome and I have a crisp $100 bill that every single christian in this room will tell me the exact same story. I can however point you to a large group of people who are like me. Who went to church with parents as a kid, was told there is only one way to get to heaven and that every answer to every question on life is in that book. There is scripture for everything. I remember being in the team room in Iraq with all the guys huddled up. We go over yesterday, cover today's objectives, and before heading out the unit chaplain comes in and we of course pray. I can't tell you how many times I came back in a typical day, killed 5 insurgents, saw a handful of young marines die, maybe if I am lucky I see no women or kids blown up or a head in the street. That's a typical day in Ramadi 2006. Then I go back to the Chaplin to get my head straight and he always had a great answer for me involving scripture of course, that it's all part of God's plan and to put my worries in his hands. I did of course and as you can imagine I went out the next day and the day after and saw the exact same outcome. At what point do I start questioning the motives of all of it? I trusted of course because my parents taught me the same things they were taught and there parents before them which is funny because my grandfather and father went through the exact same thing I did in war. There thinking changed because of it but I was still stubborn in my ways. I carried a heavy burden in me for a long time until I had my own awakening. Your way is ok brother if you truly believe in it 100% but Iied to myself and faked it for 52 years. I know you guys have kids like me. What would you tell them if they decided to change paths to something similar to mine? Would you fear for them? Talk them out of it? It's easy to tell a guy you never met these things. What would you say to your own child?
 
When all is said and done we should all strive to live like there is a reward for everybody at the end even if you do or don't believe in said reward. Some of you have it all figured out, some of us will be on a spiritual journey until we leave the human shell behind because that journey is what now drives us. I see the reward for everybody but I get some of you only see it if you follow Path A and that's fine. We should all be happy for one another no matter the journey but that doesn't seem to be the case. I have been a christian for my entire life I just stopped putting labels on things, treat the bible as a teaching tool not a guide and I left the church behind for good. That's not a slam on anybody or their beliefs......
 
Sandbar said:
When all is said and done we should all strive to live like there is a reward for everybody at the end even if you do or don't believe in said reward. Some of you have it all figured out, some of us will be on a spiritual journey until we leave the human shell behind because that journey is what now drives us. I see the reward for everybody but I get some of you only see it if you follow Path A and that's fine. We should all be happy for one another no matter the journey but that doesn't seem to be the case. I have been a christian for my entire life I just stopped putting labels on things, treat the bible as a teaching tool not a guide and I left the church behind for good. That's not a slam on anybody or their beliefs......
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I appreciate your perspective on my beliefs and being inclusive of it. I accept and am satisfied with the Biblical account of creation and life, and is my hope and assurance of eternal life. I don’t expect everyone to believe that, and while I reject other notions, I have no issue at all with people proclaiming theirs. You are very civil with your conversations, as we all should be.
 
Watch this video. This is THE BEST explanation of my DMT experience. Took me forever to find a video from someone who can do accurately articulate what changed my perspective forever. This guy didn't experience the horrible part of it luckily but WOW

 
metwannabe said:
Morals are derived from a divine creator, you don't have to believe it but it doesn't make it untrue.
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They can derived from just the human experience without any divine bases. I know this is hard for christians tomaccept but it is the raw truth. I'll give you an example.

Between the ages of 15 and 18 I had a pretty steady girlfriend. The summer I graduated high school I screwed up and cheated on her wiith her step sister. I ended up getting mono which is how I got caught. Now according to you I should have feared god for my sin and how I wronged her. In reality having to talk to her and see her devastation and heartache as JUST a human being was enough to solidify a moral in me never to do that to anyone again. Just a simple human trait not instilled by my fear of god as I was athiest already at that point. The fact that i see everyone as just human being woth human feeling and emotions is enough for me to not ever willingly deceive or betray them (with exceptions for truly evil people).

I, according to your doctrine i owed my girlfriend nothing. No apology, no explanation, no remorse to her personally but to god instead. As long as I shut my eyes and said "Jesus forgive me" all was good right?

Once had a friend say he feared athiest because we could do anything without fear of god. I said I fear christians because they can do whatever they want and simply ask for forgiveness to some god and instantly absolve themselves of their behavior. They could cheat 100 times and as long as they ask for forgiveness all is good.
 
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