Misc All Things Religious

[Downeastnc]

I give atheists immense credit for their beliefs. It requires an infinite more amount of faith to believe that life and all its intricancies just happened by an amazing series of consequences, than was done by a superior being with an omnipresent mind.

Meh your assigning beliefs to us we dont have....I have no idea the exact way everything unfolded, no one does, thus the use of words like "theory", most atheist do not state one way or the other as far as "creation" goes.....we go with what science shows and what we logically and realistically can explain or theorize, all the while admitting we are not sure if things are right or wrong and being able to admit and understand we simply have not progressed to the point where our science can explain these things.

Trust me though it takes WAY WAY WAY more faith to believe a magic sky daddy created the entire universe with a thought versus saying what I am saying and that is I dont know how it happened but I'm sure it wasnt magic.

 

[Jessy89]

Meh your assigning beliefs to us we dont have....I have no idea the exact way everything unfolded, no one does, thus the use of words like "theory", most atheist do not state one way or the other as far as "creation" goes.....we go with what science shows and what we logically and realistically can explain or theorize, all the while admitting we are not sure if things are right or wrong and being able to admit and understand we simply have not progressed to the point where our science can explain these things.

Trust me though it takes WAY WAY WAY more faith to believe a magic sky daddy created the entire universe with a thought versus saying what I am saying and that is I dont know how it happened but I'm sure it wasnt magic.

But what if your wrong and end up burning in hell for all of eternity?


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[Iceagewhereartthou]

[QUOTE="Downeastnc, post: 284564, member: 1553

Trust me though it takes WAY WAY WAY more faith to believe a magic sky daddy created the entire universe with a thought versus saying what I am saying and that is I dont know how it happened but I'm sure it wasnt magic.
[/QUOTE]

You completely lost me. You think it is more magical to believe that something (in this case the Universe) was designed with intent and created than it is to believe it came from nothing by violating multilpe scientific principles and laws amidst unfathomable odds (see video above for one example) at multiple stages and on multiple levels?

I agree it wasn't magic; that's one big reason I believe the way I do. The existence of the Universe without a designer and creator (to say nothing of the formation of bodies, life, etc) is the epitome of magical thinking. You have way more faith than I do or ever could.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Hell doesnt exist. In the words of a athiest rapper.........you cant scare an athiest with hell.......

I've never sinned not 1 single time in my life so how can I go to hell?

Can something exist regardless if a person believes it does or not?

Can you prove it does not exist?
Your statement is written as an absolute. If it is an absolute you should be able to provide proof. If it is not an absolute then it is an opinion or statement of belief, and should be stated as such; "I believe hell does not exist." In which case, the possibility that it does exist is valid. A rational and logical person would do well to consider both possibilities.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Meh your assigning beliefs to us we dont have....I have no idea the exact way everything unfolded, no one does, thus the use of words like "theory", most atheist do not state one way or the other as far as "creation" goes.....we go with what science shows and what we logically and realistically can explain or theorize, all the while admitting we are not sure if things are right or wrong and being able to admit and understand we simply have not progressed to the point where our science can explain these things.

Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. So you don't have beliefs but you don't know how everything unfolded and have to turn to theory? If you don't know for sure and your going to make assertions, those assertions must be based on belief.

Claiming to be an atheist is an absolute claim yet you acknowledge (multiple times) you can't be certain or may be wrong. Are you more agnostic?

 

[Shaggy]

But if you die a non believer without knowing Jesus and being saved you go to Hell. Isn’t that what the Bible teaches. Jesus is the only way into heaven


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I'm an athiest. Jesus and hell dont exist in my opinion. Sin is an entirely religious construct in which to frame behaviors that can be judged.

 

[Shaggy]

Can something exist regardless if a person believes it does or not?

Can you prove it does not exist?
Your statement is written as an absolute. If it is an absolute you should be able to provide proof. If it is not an absolute then it is an opinion or statement of belief, and should be stated as such; "I believe hell does not exist." In which case, the possibility that it does exist is valid. A rational and logical person would do well to consider both possibilities.

Sure something can exist even if someone believes in it or not. Aliens, god, bigfoot all are things people can choose to believe in without proof and just circumstantial evidence.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

I'm an athiest. Jesus and hell dont exist in my opinion. Sin is an entirely religious construct in which to frame behaviors that can be judged.

Sure something can exist even if someone believes in it or not. Aliens, god, bigfoot all are things people can choose to believe in without proof and just circumstantial evidence.

This is what I was wondering. So you are making a belief (or opinion) claim; not an absolute claim. "Jesus and hell don't exist in my opinion" as opposed to "Jesus and hell don't exist.." To make an absolute claim, a rational and logical person should have proof. What you are saying is you believe they don't exist, or that you don't believe they do exist. Either way, you are making a statement that you "believe" to be true, since you cannot prove that statement. Opinions and beliefs also (by nature) automatically allow for the possibility that the opposite (or at least something different) could also be true. In this case, couldn't it also be true that Jesus and hell exist even of you don't believe it? As a logical and rational person, shouldn't that possibility also be considered?

"choose to believe in without proof and just circumstantial evidence. Or they could choose not to believe in without proof it does not exist.

 

[Deleted member 1449]

Hell doesnt exist. In the words of a athiest rapper.........you cant scare an athiest with hell.......

I've never sinned not 1 single time in my life so how can I go to hell?

I'm sincerely wondering what you mean by this statement. Are you saying you deny the doctrine of sin? Are you saying you are morally perfect?

 

[Downeastnc]

Sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. So you don't have beliefs but you don't know how everything unfolded and have to turn to theory? If you don't know for sure and your going to make assertions, those assertions must be based on belief.

Claiming to be an atheist is an absolute claim yet you acknowledge (multiple times) you can't be certain or may be wrong. Are you more agnostic?

To the bolded part, it can all be labeled a belief since I don't know the true answer and I am fine admitting I have no answer, that said I know there is no god, just like you know there is a god. Are your going to admit that that there is a chance your wrong and there is no god or are you SURE there is a god and if that is the case would you not agree your assertion there is a god is based on beliefs instead of truth?

I dont see it as a contradiction at all....I dont know how the universe began, heck I dont even know that it had a beginning it could have just always been there in some form or another, we just have not gotten to the point that we have a reliable theory for that.....but I know it was not a god magically creating the universe....You can be sure that something is not true without being able to prove what the real cause is. I do not believe there is a god at all, so I am not agnostic.....

If I told you I believed it was turtles all the way down holding up the earth you would instantly know I was 100% wrong and that it was not true, you wouldnt say there was a slight chance I was right and your beliefs were wrong because there are no turtles holding up the earth....this is how I feel regarding all religion origin/creation stories....

 

[Jessy89]

Proof of hell in the video I linked here. This is for the non believers !


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[Downeastnc]

Proof of hell in the video I linked here. This is for the non believers !


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Do you really believe this is sounds from hell.....also do you really believe that hell is literally inside the earth...

 

[Jessy89]

Do you really believe this is sounds from hell.....also do you really believe that hell is literally inside the earth...

Well I don’t know it could be a real video. And where else would hell be we know the center of hell is hot!


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[Downeastnc]

Well I don’t know it could be a real video. And where else would hell be we know the center of hell is hot!


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I dunno why not the middle of the sun .....do you think heaven is really above earth in the clouds and everyone has wings and plays harps?

 

[Jessy89]

I dunno why not the middle of the sun .....do you think heaven is really above earth in the clouds and everyone has wings and plays harps?

People with near death experiences is proof of heaven.


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[Bham 99]

People with near death experiences is proof of heaven.


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And hell.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

To the bolded part, it can all be labeled a belief since I don't know the true answer and I am fine admitting I have no answer, that said I know there is no god, is this a contradiction? just like you know there is a god. But these can't logically and rationally both be true. We can both believe such, but we can't both know such. Are your going to admit that that there is a chance your wrong and there is no god Absolutely, I could very well be wrong and there may be no God. Either God exists or he does not. His existence or nonexistence would be true regardless of what anyone believes. I certainly cannot prove with the 5 senses He does, but I think there is very good evidence. Without proof, I hold my view with a certain amount of belief or faith. My faith does not change the reality that He does or does not exist (if He does, that is an absolute truth, if He does not, that would also be an absolute truth). This is why "faith" is a large and necessary component of being a Christian. or are you SURE there is a god and if that is the case would you not agree your assertion there is a god is based on beliefs instead of truth?

I dont see it as a contradiction at all....I dont know how the universe began, heck I dont even know that it had a beginning it could have just always been there in some form or another, we just have not gotten to the point that we have a reliable theory for that.....but I know it was not a god magically creating the universe.... (If God exists, magic would not be needed. So for clarification, you can't buy the idea that a designer and creator could make the universe, but you buy the idea that it could have created itself? Which view is more "magical" in thinking? You can be sure that something is not true without being able to prove what the real cause is. I do not believe there is a god at all, so you know there isn't one or you believe there isn't one? If you just believe it to be so, then that allows for another possibility to also be true. so I am not agnostic.....

If I told you I believed it was turtles all the way down holding up the earth you would instantly know I was 100% wrong and that it was not true, you wouldnt say there was a slight chance I was right and your beliefs were wrong because there are no turtles holding up the earth....this is how I feel regarding all religion origin/creation stories.... because this is a truth claim that can be proved or disproved. One could still hold the opinion or belief if one chose to, but it wouldn't be rational or logical.

 

[Downeastnc]

(If God exists, magic would not be needed. So for clarification, you can't buy the idea that a designer and creator could make the universe, but you buy the idea that it could have created itself? Which view is more "magical" in thinking?


I mean yeah, to me the idea that the universe needs a creator is more magical than thinking the universe either always has been or was self starting on some level...at some point in the future I imagine man and science evolve to the level that they will have a fairly strong understanding of these questions concerning the beginning/creation/expansion of the universe, we are not even sure there never was no universe....in the meantime I will be ok with just not knowing....I certainly wont need to assign credit to a magic omnipotent god.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

(If God exists, magic would not be needed. So for clarification, you can't buy the idea that a designer and creator could make the universe, but you buy the idea that it could have created itself? Which view is more "magical" in thinking?


I mean yeah, to me the idea that the universe needs a creator is more magical than thinking the universe either always has been or was self starting on some level...saying this shows you have more faith than I do. I can't believe it came from nothing. I can't fathom something that came from nothing. A treehouse had to have a builder; no amount of time, weather, or chance could create it. at some point in the future I imagine man and science evolve to the level that they will have a fairly strong understanding of these questions concerning the beginning/creation/expansion of the universe, we are not even sure there never was no universe....possibly but I don't have enough faith in science and scientists, who are very fallible in nature. Plus science has it's limitations in scope. in the meantime I will be ok with just not knowing....I yet you appear to have made up your mind certainly wont need to assign credit to a magic omnipotent god. But rather to a "magic" universe/singularity/formation of life/diversification and complication of life forms/etc. If God exists, He would not need or use "magic."

Downeast, I hope this comes across as genuine, and not mockery. I really enjoy the conversation and welcome a challenge. Thank you for being willing to discuss this in a thread where your views are in the minority, in a respectful way!

 

[Shaggy]

I'm sincerely wondering what you mean by this statement. Are you saying you deny the doctrine of sin? Are you saying you are morally perfect?

I dont belief in the doctrine. Sin is a Christian based concept in order to judge. I have done things that you would see as a sin and maybe even "immoral". To me they were neither. I'll be completely open and honest here.

When I met my wife she was in the middle of a divorce. Her and her husband had been separated for a year BUT he had not moved out of the house because they were recent transplants from Pennsylvania and he had no where to go locally.

Fast forward and he is out of the house but due to NC law their 1 year separation period didnt start until he officially no longer lived there. This means for the first 10 months of our relationship we were intimate while she was technically still married even though they had not been living together as husband and wife for over a year already.

This was due to NC law and no other reason. If we were like other states their divorce would have been done sooner.

I saw that as ok because their marriage dissolved much sooner than their "separation" date. This to you is a sin and immoral?