Misc All Things Religious

[Rain Cold]

This is where we differ now. I look at ancient sumerian civilizations that inhabited earth before there was a bible. Long before scripture. Did god put the semarians on earth? If he did as we both believe as the creator of all why should I believe the bible is the end all be all of who or what god is? God is light, he is energy, he is frequency. I'm not sure why that is so easily dismissed. We as humans understand the physical world we live in because we can see it, touch it and describe it with language or drawings. What makes one religion right and the other wrong? It makes sense to me that if I am to connect with a devine creator, I'm not going to make the connection I desire in the physical realm with which I exist at present. In my mind the connection is what's important to God not the manner in which we partake in that process. I still enjoy and am fascinated by the bible in a historical sense I just no longer feel it's my ticket to eternity.

You can believe all of those things to be true, but that doesn't make it all true, or any of it true, for that matter. There has to be a standard for what is real and not real, what us true and not true.

One's unique feelings on anything - religion, society, politics, connection to a divine creator, what God is or isn't, isn't a standard for all mankind. It might be a personal guide, but it isn't a standard for all. Personally, I see the Bible as the standard, the cornerstone of truth for all. The Bible tells the nature of God and how God is to be worshiped and defines how our relationship with him should be. Those things are true, because the Bible says they are true.

The Bible is the end all be all because it says it is. It is the word of God. If we believe it is the word of God and not just the writings of a few good-hearted folk, then we must believe it and believe all of it. And if we do believe it, then the quasi-pantheistic view that you hold is precarious. That is, if we test it against Scripture.

That said, you don't have to believe the Bible as the true word of God. You don't have to accept it at all. You can believe that each person can have their own standard of truth and reality and can connect to whatever god they cojure up, however they imagine him, in whatever way suits them, and in whatever form fits their religious perspective. You can do of that. But you can't do it and still claim that the Bible is the word of God. You have to diminish it down to being just a common work of fiction, written by men, without any divine inspiration whatsoever. That is your only choice if you hold the view you have presented. And that's perfectly fine.

Everyone can believe what they want. You just don't have the choice to believe whatever you feel and also claim Scripture as truth. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Bham 99]

Jesus's blood is what makes the difference between Christianity and other religions.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

What do I need to be careful of? The "christian god" is the very "label" I sought to remove myself from. When I was a kid I was drug to church. When I got married I went because it pleased my wife. When I was deployed I went to our chaplains service because that's what I was raised to do. My time now is spent in meditation with just me, the breath my creator breathed in to me and my conscience that is quieted and clear. I have never been more at peace or closer to the creator. Not because my way is better but because there is no wrong way in my opinion. I still read the bible I just see it in a very, very different way

Great response by RC, it says a lot of what I was getting at. You certainly don't have to answer to me or your parents, your chaplains, or even to your wife. If that was what disturbed you about your past faith you may have changed it without need. If Christianity is true you only have to answer to God and following Him is between you and Him and no one else. But if it's true, we cannot be deceived. As RC said, God's fingerprint is throughout the created universe, but He is not wound within it's fabric. If it's true, the "Christian God" is not a god, He's the God; the only God. If not, then we're all free to create whatever god(s) we want, but then those created gods can't be true gods.

As for peace and happiness; I personally think true peace and happiness can only come from God as those are two of His attributes and originate from Him. We can certainly have glimpses of those in this life but it pales compared to what would await when reunited with Him. For Christians, in this life, we are guaranteed neither. CS Lewis said this:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
​

― C. S. Lewis

 

[RBR71]

You guys nailed it, I can't add anything of value and don't want to seem as though I'm piling on. But 100% as written in Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”

He is certainly visible to us because of His creation but He is not in it. When I asked earlier where Jesus fits into this spritual journey, for me, it's as simple as: Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, came to earth to live as man, took our sins to the cross and on the third was raised up, defeating death?! And have you confessed your sins to Him asking Jesus to come into your heart? That's it, that's Christianity, our Savior is still alive sitting on the right hand of God as our (those who have accepted Him) mediator, savior and perfect sacrificial lamb! I get over joyed typing this, this life is only a fleeting moment, true peace and happiness, perfection for an eternity is what awaits. As Paul stated, "To live is Christ, to die is gain!"

This is a relationship not religion and this is how, although some days are tough and I may not be happy, I never lose my joy, what a day that will be!

 

[Sandbar]

You can believe all of those things to be true, but that doesn't make it all true, or any of it true, for that matter. There has to be a standard for what is real and not real, what us true and not true.

One's unique feelings on anything - religion, society, politics, connection to a divine creator, what God is or isn't, isn't a standard for all mankind. It might be a personal guide, but it isn't a standard for all. Personally, I see the Bible as the standard, the cornerstone of truth for all. The Bible tells the nature of God and how God is to be worshiped and defines how our relationship with him should be. Those things are true, because the Bible says they are true.

The Bible is the end all be all because it says it is. It is the word of God. If we believe it is the word of God and not just the writings of a few good-hearted folk, then we must believe it and believe all of it. And if we do believe it, then the quasi-pantheistic view that you hold is precarious. That is, if we test it against Scripture.

That said, you don't have to believe the Bible as the true word of God. You don't have to accept it at all. You can believe that each person can have their own standard of truth and reality and can connect to whatever god they cojure up, however they imagine him, in whatever way suits them, and in whatever form fits their religious perspective. You can do of that. But you can't do it and still claim that the Bible is the word of God. You have to diminish it down to being just a common work of fiction, written by men, without any divine inspiration whatsoever. That is your only choice if you hold the view you have presented. And that's perfectly fine.

Everyone can believe what they want. You just don't have the choice to believe whatever you feel and also claim Scripture as truth. That's all I'm saying.

Brother what I'm trying to say is there is no standard for ME anymore. This isn't about telling someone they are wrong. You aren't wrong, The Hindu isn't wrong, the Buddhist isn't wrong, the Muslim isn't wrong and neither is the Jew. Have you ever read the book of Enoch? I never even knew it existed but it isn't a part of the bible. Why is that? Because the Roman Catholic church had it removed is why which leads me to question what else they have hidden from humanity. The first gospels of the new testament weren't written until 40 years after Jesus death and continued for a century. The bible you read today is a document written by man, translated through multiple languages and multiple empires over thousands of years. If historians were to rewrite the new testament today would it look the same? Would you still accept it as the true word of god?

 

[Sandbar]

You guys nailed it, I can't add anything of value and don't want to seem as though I'm piling on. But 100% as written in Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are you, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they existed and were created.”

He is certainly visible to us because of His creation but He is not in it. When I asked earlier where Jesus fits into this spritual journey, for me, it's as simple as: Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, came to earth to live as man, took our sins to the cross and on the third was raised up, defeating death?! And have you confessed your sins to Him asking Jesus to come into your heart? That's it, that's Christianity, our Savior is still alive sitting on the right hand of God as our (those who have accepted Him) mediator, savior and perfect sacrificial lamb! I get over joyed typing this, this life is only a fleeting moment, true peace and happiness, perfection for an eternity is what awaits. As Paul stated, "To live is Christ, to die is gain!"

This is a relationship not religion and this is how, although some days are tough and I may not be happy, I never lose my joy, what a day that will be!

I was baptized before I could walk and yes I believe Jesus is the son of god who was crucified and raised from the dead. My connection to the creator is no longer through the bible or a church. I go straight to the source through meditation. That's the only difference between me today and me last year. Is that the wrong way? There is no wrong way to have a relationship with the creator

 

[Arcc]

Brother what I'm trying to say is there is no standard for ME anymore. This isn't about telling someone they are wrong. You aren't wrong, The Hindu isn't wrong, the Buddhist isn't wrong, the Muslim isn't wrong and neither is the Jew. Have you ever read the book of Enoch? I never even knew it existed but it isn't a part of the bible. Why is that? Because the Roman Catholic church had it removed is why which leads me to question what else they have hidden from humanity. The first gospels of the new testament weren't written until 40 years after Jesus death and continued for a century. The bible you read today is a document written by man, translated through multiple languages and multiple empires over thousands of years. If historians were to rewrite the new testament today would it look the same? Would you still accept it as the true word of god?

This is true, the Bible has been translated multiple times over a thousand years yet still remains the same. Sure you can “what if” it to death, but it goes back to what RC said and if you believe it’s Gods word or not. If you believe God himself can take the form of a man through a virgin birth, do miracles, choose himself to die on a cross to take all sin of man and all hell for all of eternity for all who believes in a moment, then rise from the dead; it’s not hard to believe the same God can preserve his word concerning it for a few years.

It all goes back to what you really believe about who God is. If you decide not to believe certain foundations, you have chosen to take the exit off the freeway with no GPS or map.

 

[Sandbar]

This is true, the Bible has been translated multiple times over a thousand years yet still remains the same. Sure you can “what if” it to death, but it goes back to what RC said and if you believe it’s Gods word or not. If you believe God himself can take the form of a man through a virgin birth, do miracles, choose himself to die on a cross to take all sin of man and all hell for all of eternity for all who believes in a moment, then rise from the dead; it’s not hard to believe the same God can preserve his word concerning it for a few years.

It all goes back to what you really believe about who God is. If you decide not to believe certain foundations, you have chosen to take the exit off the freeway with no GPS or map.

The ultimate goal is eternal life in heaven right? Do you think people who never read one word of that book get a ticket to eternal life?

 

[Arcc]

The ultimate goal is eternal life in heaven right? Do you think people who never read one word of that book get a ticket to eternal life?

The ultimate goal is absolute perfection whereby we can see God which can only be obtained by an absolute perfect sacrifice.

As far a those who haven’t heard, in Romans it pretty much condemns those because “God through creation is clearly seen” and Paul states later on in Romans “How shall they believe if they don’t have a preacher.” That said, I believe God is a just God who affords the opportunity to those who are searching for him. When and how does God afford that opportunity, I don’t know.

 

[Sandbar]

The ultimate goal is absolute perfection whereby we can see God which can only be obtained by an absolute perfect sacrifice.

As far a those who haven’t heard, in Romans it pretty much condemns those because “God through creation is clearly seen” and Paul states later on in Romans “How shall they believe if they don’t have a preacher.” That said, I believe God is a just God who affords the opportunity to those who are searching for him. When and how does God afford that opportunity, I don’t know.

Well I guess what I have been trying to say is that I do have a preacher....Me! The only difference between you guys and myself is I go directly to source when I connect. I never felt a real "connection" to God until I understood how my Native American ancestors connected.

 

[RBR71]

Well I guess what I have been trying to say is that I do have a preacher....Me! The only difference between you guys and myself is I go directly to source when I connect. I never felt a real "connection" to God until I understood how my Native American ancestors connected.

I don't need a preacher or a priest to communicate with God, when Jesus died on that cross the veil ripped and He became our mediator. I commune anywhere anytime through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I love you brother and appreciate all you have done, but satan is using your spiritual journey as a vessel of deception. You either believe the Bible or you don't l, all of it not some of it. If anyone or any religion or any thing leads you to believe there is a way to God, to perfect eternal union with Him by a means other than Jesus, you are being deceived. In John 14:6 Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except through me." He did not say he was one of the ways, a way, or one along the way, He said I am THE Way, there is no other.

 

[Sandbar]

I don't need a preacher or a priest to communicate with God, when Jesus died on that cross the veil ripped and He became our mediator. I commune anywhere anytime through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I love you brother and appreciate all you have done, but satan is using your spiritual journey as a vessel of deception. You either believe the Bible or you don't l, all of it not some of it. If anyone or any religion or any thing leads you to believe there is a way to God, to perfect eternal union with Him by a means other than Jesus, you are being deceived. In John 14:6 Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father, except through me." He did not say he was one of the ways, a way, or one along the way, He said I am THE Way, there is no other.

Do you believe that those who don't walk the exact path that christians do are doomed to hell? That's what you really believe? Where do you think those unborn babies reside when they are aborted? Are they in hell too? Purgatory maybe? When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me what does that mean? That I have to believe every single word written in a book after he was crucified and resurrected? What happens to people located in a tribe deep in the jungle, never visited by man when they die? They don't know of Jesus so are they just sh*t out of luck?

 

[RBR71]

Do you believe that those who don't walk the exact path that christians do are doomed to hell? That's what you really believe? Where do you think those unborn babies reside when they are aborted? Are they in hell too? Purgatory maybe? When Jesus said no one comes to the father except through me what does that mean? That I have to believe every single word written in a book after he was crucified and resurrected? What happens to people located in a tribe deep in the jungle, never visited by man when they die? They don't know of Jesus so are they just sh*t out of luck?

John 3:17-18 God did not send His son into the world to comdemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. Yes, those who choose a path other than Jesus will go to hell if they do not repent and accept Jesus before death. Now, unborn babies and children who die before the age of accountability (which is a different discussion and I believe different ages for different children's level of understanding) will not be condemned to hell. But once they reach that age of understanding have a choice to make and those who choose Christ, choose eternal life, those who reject Him will unfortunately hear the words "I never knew, you, depart from me."

The question of tribes that have never heard is a really good topic of discussion. There is scripture in Matthew that states all will hear before Christ return, does this mean every single person or groups of people? Scripture also tells us His creation is a testimony to His existence, those who have never heard Jesus would still know there is a God through His creation. I'm sure iceageweather, RC or Arcc could give much better insight into that topic.

God's word tells us to add nothing nor take away anything from His word, it is to be believed, every book, chapter and verse. And it's simple, only through the shed blood of Christ can we be saved, that's what He means when he says he is the only way.

 

[Sandbar]

John 3:17-18 God did not send His son into the world to comdemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. Yes, those who choose a path other than Jesus will go to hell if they do not repent and accept Jesus before death. Now, unborn babies and children who die before the age of accountability (which is a different discussion and I believe different ages for different children's level of understanding) will not be condemned to hell. But once they reach that age of understanding have a choice to make and those who choose Christ, choose eternal life, those who reject Him will unfortunately hear the words "I never knew, you, depart from me."

The question of tribes that have never heard is a really good topic of discussion. There is scripture in Matthew that states all will hear before Christ return, does this mean every single person or groups of people? Scripture also tells us His creation is a testimony to His existence, those who have never heard Jesus would still know there is a God through His creation. I'm sure iceageweather, RC or Arcc could give much better insight into that topic.

God's word tells us to add nothing nor take away anything from His word, it is to be believed, every book, chapter and verse. And it's simple, only through the shed blood of Christ can we be saved, that's what He means when he says he is the only way.

So what happens to those poor unfortunate souls who died before the bible was written?

 

[RBR71]

So what happens to those poor unfortunate souls who died before the bible was written?

The ones who lived during the times the Bible is written about? The law was written for them, they had the temple, priest and lambs without blemish as sacrifices for atonement of their sins. Jesus became the ultimate perfect sacrificial lamb, no more need for animal sacrifices and rituals. There are numerous instances in the old testament of use of the blood of the lamb. God revealed himself much differently then, they were aware and still had choices to make with eternal implications. Only poor souls before the Bible was penned are those who rejected God

 

[Sandbar]

The ones who lived during the times the Bible is written about? The law was written for them, they had the temple, priest and lambs without blemish as sacrifices for atonement of their sins. Jesus became the ultimate perfect sacrificial lamb, no more need for animal sacrifices and rituals. There are numerous instances in the old testament of use of the blood of the lamb. God revealed himself much differently then, they were aware and still had choices to make with eternal implications. Only poor souls before the Bible was penned are those who rejected God

I have a wonderful connection to Jesus who I accepted A long time ago. I have a loving connection with the creator that I never had before. Shouldn't that be enough?

 

[Arcc]

I have a wonderful connection to Jesus who I accepted A long time ago. I have a loving connection with the creator that I never had before. Shouldn't that be enough?

Is one tiny piece of apple pie enough? Or is one spoonful of nice cold ice cream on a hot summer day sufficient? Of course not.

A Christian can never have enough Christ and the yearning and thirsting to do what is acceptable to Christ only grows as time moves on. If we are looking for a finish line or a certain plane to reach and to have enough God we are misguided.

 

[Sandbar]

Is one tiny piece of apple pie enough? Or is one spoonful of nice cold ice cream on a hot summer day sufficient? Of course not.

A Christian can never have enough Christ and the yearning and thirsting to do what is acceptable to Christ only grows as time moves on. If we are looking for a finish line or a certain plane to reach and to be enough God we are misguided.

Not what I'm asking. I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a very active and close relationship with my creator. The Bible is not the ticket into heaven which has been my argument if you want to call it such. I still look to the bible for guidance as any christian should I just refuse to weaponize it to condemn others, especially when the very people in charge of it's canon were the ones who nailed Jesus to the cross.

 

[Rain Cold]

Not what I'm asking. I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a very active and close relationship with my creator. The Bible is not the ticket into heaven which has been my argument if you want to call it such. I still look to the bible for guidance as any christian should I just refuse to weaponize it to condemn others, especially when the very people in charge of it's canon were the ones who nailed Jesus to the cross.

The last part of what you wrote isn't true. There are a lot of cross-currents in this thread with respect to how the Bible came to be. If you don't accept the Bible as the complete and true word of God, then there's no need to even debate it, which was my point earlier.

Any theology that I would hold comes from the Bible. If you or anyone doesn't accept the Bible, then everything simply comes down to a personal opinion. And there's basis for which to debate that.

 

[Arcc]

Not what I'm asking. I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a very active and close relationship with my creator. The Bible is not the ticket into heaven which has been my argument if you want to call it such. I still look to the bible for guidance as any christian should I just refuse to weaponize it to condemn others, especially when the very people in charge of it's canon were the ones who nailed Jesus to the cross.

What makes you look to the Bible for guidance? If it is what you say it is, then you are pretty much wasting your time.

 

[Sandbar]

What makes you look to the Bible for guidance? If it is what you say it is, then you are pretty much wasting your time.

A guide is just that it does not mean law. Why was the book of Enoch kept out of biblical canon? There are multiple examples of the Roman Catholic Church excluding other writings from the Bible. Ask yourself why that is. You still to this day have theologians who argue over translations of the bible and their meanings and this has occurred over thousands of years. That's the true word of God that I am supposed to blindly accept? I choose now to meditate and connect with God's creation instead of spending my time reaffirming whether or not I am worthy through a book. I don't see how opening one's mind to other possibilities as a bad thing

 

[Sandbar]

The last part of what you wrote isn't true. There are a lot of cross-currents in this thread with respect to how the Bible came to be. If you don't accept the Bible as the complete and true word of God, then there's no need to even debate it, which was my point earlier.

Any theology that I would hold comes from the Bible. If you or anyone doesn't accept the Bible, then everything simply comes down to a personal opinion. And there's basis for which to debate that.

Why do you accept it as the true word of God? Because it's always been that way? Because the people who translated and determined it to be as such would never deceive you? If the bible were to be rewritten today would it be exactly the same? I'm willing to bet the answer is no

 

[Arcc]

A guide is just that it does not mean law. Why was the book of Enoch kept out of biblical canon? There are multiple examples of the Roman Catholic Church excluding other writings from the Bible. Ask yourself why that is. You still to this day have theologians who argue over translations of the bible and their meanings and this has occurred over thousands of years. That's the true word of God that I am supposed to blindly accept? I choose now to meditate and connect with God's creation instead of spending my time reaffirming whether or not I am worthy through a book. I don't see how opening one's mind to other possibilities as a bad thing

But wouldn’t the same reasons you can fully trust the Bible, be the same reasons you can’t trust it’s Christ? If you can’t trust the scriptures because of man, how can we trust our souls to the one who those same scriptures describe to us?

 

[Sandbar]

But wouldn’t the same reasons you can fully trust the Bible, be the same reasons you can’t trust it’s Christ? If you can’t trust the scriptures because of man, how can we trust our souls to the one who those same scriptures describe to us?

Nowhere have I said the Bible was wrong or a lie or anything of that nature. I just don't worship the book. I don't have to live my life by it verbatim to be a follower or a believer in Jesus. I don't have to pledge my allegiance to it out of fear that I won't be given eternal life. If you feel that you do that's your journey not mine and I'm happy for you. It's not like I chastised any of you for how you choose to worship. If this means I'm not a Christian in the eyes of Christians I have no problem with that. I would much rather connect directly to God in my own way and be happy than to be trapped with a closed mind that doesn't ask questions. That's not how you grow spiritually in my opinion

 

[Rain Cold]

Why do you accept it as the true word of God? Because it's always been that way? Because the people who translated and determined it to be as such would never deceive you? If the bible were to be rewritten today would it be exactly the same? I'm willing to bet the answer is no

None of that is relevant. You can view every manuscript in the original Hebrew and Greek that has ever been found and analyzed, and you are free to read translate them for yourself. Like I said, if you dont accept it as the word of God, that's fine. But it warns against exactly what you are doing.

Either the people who believe it to be God's word are wrong, or the ones who don't believe it to be God's word are wrong. It's really that simple. There aren't any other options.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Brother what I'm trying to say is there is no standard for ME anymore. This isn't about telling someone they are wrong. You aren't wrong, The Hindu isn't wrong, the Buddhist isn't wrong, the Muslim isn't wrong and neither is the Jew. Have you ever read the book of Enoch? I never even knew it existed but it isn't a part of the bible. Why is that? Because the Roman Catholic church had it removed is why which leads me to question what else they have hidden from humanity. The first gospels of the new testament weren't written until 40 years after Jesus death and continued for a century. The bible you read today is a document written by man, translated through multiple languages and multiple empires over thousands of years. If historians were to rewrite the new testament today would it look the same? Would you still accept it as the true word of god?

Sandbar, I will try to address some of your questions if I can. Not because I am any authority or because I have all the answers, but I do think you are asking valid questions from a sincere place.

- For a Christian, the standard is Jesus, not the Bible itself. The Bible will not and can not get someone reconciled with God; neither can doctrine, church, "religion," or good works. Only the sacrifice of Jesus is able to do that. However, the Bible is very important for helping us learn about God, His world, and the life and works of Jesus; as well as the early Christians. It has tons of what is often called "spiritual food;" that helps bring us a better ability to know God, the world and our place in it, and how to relate to others around us. The Bible actually has lots of historical support (manuscript, eye witness testimony, archaeological, etc); more than just about any ancient historical document that we have. If we can't take the Bible at it's word, there is no reason to believe any of it, including anything about Jesus. Remember, the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses and Paul's writings were firsthand to his experiences, including his oppressive past and conversion. Many of these guys died for what they knew, first hand, to be true; not something they just thought was true.

Here is a good video from a guy named Cliffe (not actually sure his last name). He is a longtime pastor who has gone to college campuses for decades to talk to people with questions just like yours. There are many many of his sessions on youtube, but this particular one addresses several of your questions. If you take the time to listen it will address them better than I can.



Here is part 2 of that if you want more

"You aren't wrong, The Hindu isn't wrong, the Buddhist isn't wrong, the Muslim isn't wrong and neither is the Jew."

- Here you seem to be talking about relativism. If people in these groups are saying conflicting things, which each maintain are true, then someone has to be wrong. They can't all be true. If you are talking about "this is true for me and that is true for you" then you are saying truth is relative, meaning there is no absolute truth (which is itself a statement of absolute truth; see the logical contradiction there?). Cliffe also addresses this in the video above, and has other videos about this topic; as does Frank Turek, John Lennox, and others.

I was baptized before I could walk and yes I believe Jesus is the son of god who was crucified and raised from the dead. My connection to the creator is no longer through the bible or a church. I go straight to the source through meditation. That's the only difference between me today and me last year. Is that the wrong way? There is no wrong way to have a relationship with the creator

This is the core issue here; ie, John 3:16. That is technically all that matters. However, throwing out the Bible and church (a Church is a body of believers, not a building) can severely limit our ability to grow, learn, and nurture that faith. That would be like throwing out prayer. We can still know the truth but it's hard to grow or do much with it. Prayer, fellowship, and the Bible are all important for spiritual growth.

The ultimate goal is eternal life in heaven right? Do you think people who never read one word of that book get a ticket to eternal life?

So to follow; yes, people who have never read the Bible can be in Heaven. Many people prior to the Bible will be be in Heaven or are already. Elijah was taken up to Heaven, Jesus told the repentant sinner on the cross he would be in his father's house, etc; neither of them had the Bible.

So what happens to those poor unfortunate souls who died before the bible was written?

See above. Knowing, following, and seeking God was the charge before the time of Jesus and the Bible. The old testament was the old covenant about what had to happen for people to be reconciled, but it was ultimately incomplete as the sacrifice of Jesus still had to happen since it wasn't possible for people to earn it back. But the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't just for the people of the day he died, or just for the people he had met during his life, or even just for the people who came after him; it was for all people who sought to be reconciled to God. God is not limited by time or a timeline. His sacrifice is retroactive just as it was proactive.

Not what I'm asking. I have accepted Christ as my savior. I have a very active and close relationship with my creator. The Bible is not the ticket into heaven which has been my argument if you want to call it such. I still look to the bible for guidance as any christian should I just refuse to weaponize it to condemn others, especially when the very people in charge of it's canon were the ones who nailed Jesus to the cross.

I would agree with the bolded here completely (not that it matters what I agree or disagree with, as I'm not the standard of course). On condemning others; we don't have that power. Us using a book or not does not condemn people, nor does our approval or disapproval of what they do. Condemnation comes from the separation from God that results from our sin and rebellion. Reconciliation comes from the sacrifice of Jesus.

The nailing of Jesus to a cross was done by all people who have ever sinned; so all of us. He wouldn't have had to be there if it weren't for me too. There are great books and videos on how we got the cannon, why the Apocryphal books were not included, etc.

Just some thoughts... I like participating in a great discussion like this!

 

[Sandbar]

Sandbar, I will try to address some of your questions if I can. Not because I am any authority or because I have all the answers, but I do think you are asking valid questions from a sincere place.

- For a Christian, the standard is Jesus, not the Bible itself. The Bible will not and can not get someone reconciled with God; neither can doctrine, church, "religion," or good works. Only the sacrifice of Jesus is able to do that. However, the Bible is very important for helping us learn about God, His world, and the life and works of Jesus; as well as the early Christians. It has tons of what is often called "spiritual food;" that helps bring us a better ability to know God, the world and our place in it, and how to relate to others around us. The Bible actually has lots of historical support (manuscript, eye witness testimony, archaeological, etc); more than just about any ancient historical document that we have. If we can't take the Bible at it's word, there is no reason to believe any of it, including anything about Jesus. Remember, the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses and Paul's writings were firsthand to his experiences, including his oppressive past and conversion. Many of these guys died for what they knew, first hand, to be true; not something they just thought was true.

Here is a good video from a guy named Cliffe (not actually sure his last name). He is a longtime pastor who has gone to college campuses for decades to talk to people with questions just like yours. There are many many of his sessions on youtube, but this particular one addresses several of your questions. If you take the time to listen it will address them better than I can.



Here is part 2 of that if you want more

"You aren't wrong, The Hindu isn't wrong, the Buddhist isn't wrong, the Muslim isn't wrong and neither is the Jew."

- Here you seem to be talking about relativism. If people in these groups are saying conflicting things, which each maintain are true, then someone has to be wrong. They can't all be true. If you are talking about "this is true for me and that is true for you" then you are saying truth is relative, meaning there is no absolute truth (which is itself a statement of absolute truth; see the logical contradiction there?). Cliffe also addresses this in the video above, and has other videos about this topic; as does Frank Turek, John Lennox, and others.




This is the core issue here; ie, John 3:16. That is technically all that matters. However, throwing out the Bible and church (a Church is a body of believers, not a building) can severely limit our ability to grow, learn, and nurture that faith. That would be like throwing out prayer. We can still know the truth but it's hard to grow or do much with it. Prayer, fellowship, and the Bible are all important for spiritual growth.

So to follow; yes, people who have never read the Bible can be in Heaven. Many people prior to the Bible will be be in Heaven or are already. Elijah was taken up to Heaven, Jesus told the repentant sinner on the cross he would be in his father's house, etc; neither of them had the Bible.

See above. Knowing, following, and seeking God was the charge before the time of Jesus and the Bible. The old testament was the old covenant about what had to happen for people to be reconciled, but it was ultimately incomplete as the sacrifice of Jesus still had to happen since it wasn't possible for people to earn it back. But the sacrifice of Jesus wasn't just for the people of the day he died, or just for the people he had met during his life, or even just for the people who came after him; it was for all people who sought to be reconciled to God. God is not limited by time or a timeline. His sacrifice is retroactive just as it was proactive.

I would agree with the bolded here completely (not that it matters what I agree or disagree with, as I'm not the standard of course). On condemning others; we don't have that power. Us using a book or not does not condemn people, nor does our approval or disapproval of what they do. Condemnation comes from the separation from God that results from our sin and rebellion. Reconciliation comes from the sacrifice of Jesus.

The nailing of Jesus to a cross was done by all people who have ever sinned; so all of us. He wouldn't have had to be there if it weren't for me too. There are great books and videos on how we got the cannon, why the Apocryphal books were not included, etc.

Just some thoughts... I like participating in a great discussion like this!

Well I didn't start or jump into this conversation to tell anybody they were wrong. It's been the opposite. All I have ever made note of in this conversation is that the bible is just as you said "spiritual food". It should not be used as a tool to condemn people to hell. For anyone to say that people who do not have access to christian beliefs cannot enter the kingdom is simply ridiculous (this is not aimed at anybody here). I went through the same shamanic ritual that my ancestors went through and the connection I felt with the creator profoundly changed me forever. It showed me the path in ways that I can't ignore. That's all this is about not a competition so I hope you guys don't see it that way. Good post by the way!

 

[RBR71]

Well I didn't start or jump into this conversation to tell anybody they were wrong. It's been the opposite. All I have ever made note of in this conversation is that the bible is just as you said "spiritual food". It should not be used as a tool to condemn people to hell. For anyone to say that people who do not have access to christian beliefs cannot enter the kingdom is simply ridiculous (this is not aimed at anybody here). I went through the same shamanic ritual that my ancestors went through and the connection I felt with the creator profoundly changed me forever. It showed me the path in ways that I can't ignore. That's all this is about not a competition so I hope you guys don't see it that way. Good post by the way!

It's been great discussion and I don't think anyone is pointing fingers here but just trying to answer questions. I've got a question for you, do you believe anyone goes to hell and if so, why?

 

[Sandbar]

It's been great discussion and I don't think anyone is pointing fingers here but just trying to answer questions. I've got a question for you, do you believe anyone goes to hell and if so, why?

Not to be funny but I have already been to hell. It's called Iraq! In all honesty I don't know. Heaven is another dimension so I see no reason why hell isn't either. Is it a dimension of fire for eternity no. Is it a place where you can be redeemed? Perhaps. There are a lot of dead men on my service record. Will I have to answer to that? I simply don't know. I believe in reincarnation so maybe that's what happens to people who don't get a ticket to the upper room.

 

[Rain Cold]

Not to be funny but I have already been to hell. It's called Iraq! In all honesty I don't know. Heaven is another dimension so I see no reason why hell isn't either. Is it a dimension of fire for eternity no. Is it a place where you can be redeemed? Perhaps. There are a lot of dead men on my service record. Will I have to answer to that? I simply don't know. I believe in reincarnation so maybe that's what happens to people who don't get a ticket to the upper room.

This is why I say the Bible is important. It answers these questions. If we don't accept the Bible as the true word of God, what then gives us insight into stuff like this? What determines good or bad or true or untrue? How we are feeling on any given day? Our emotional state? An individual experience during meditation? What if two different people have two different experiences that show two completely opposite things to be true? They can't both be true. Hell can't be real and not real. There has to be a standard, if we have any hope of truly understanding God, our world, right and wrong, and who we are and what we are to be. That logical. Again, not trying to be combative at all. Just trying to reasonably point out that truth exists and it is more than an individual experience. It literally has to be.

 

[Sandbar]

This is why I say the Bible is important. It answers these questions. If we don't accept the Bible as the true word of God, what then gives us insight into stuff like this? What determines good or bad or true or untrue? How we are feeling on any given day? Our emotional state? An individual experience during meditation? What if two different people have two different experiences that show two completely opposite things to be true? They can't both be true. Hell can't be real and not real. There has to be a standard, if we have any hope of truly understanding God, our world, right and wrong, and who we are and what we are to be. That logical. Again, not trying to be combative at all. Just trying to reasonably point out that truth exists and it is more than an individual experience. It literally has to be.

I have been to multiple churches, multiple christian denominations in my life including my military service. I have asked many of these same questions and gotten different interpretations on what the bible says of these things. You still have biblical scholars today who disagree with many things in the bible so which one of those is right? If these men of the cloth can't agree who am I supposed to believe? All of them? I mean they can't all be right?

 

[RBR71]

Not to be funny but I have already been to hell. It's called Iraq! In all honesty I don't know. Heaven is another dimension so I see no reason why hell isn't either. Is it a dimension of fire for eternity no. Is it a place where you can be redeemed? Perhaps. There are a lot of dead men on my service record. Will I have to answer to that? I simply don't know. I believe in reincarnation so maybe that's what happens to people who don't get a ticket to the upper room.

I really can't expound on @Rain Cold response. If you believe the things you say you do, then you do not believe the Bible and there's really no other way to put it. I'm not even sure how one can proclaim to accept Jesus as one's savior and have close relationship to God but then dispute God's own word.... I'm like RC not trying to be combative at all but you really cannot have it both ways. Either you believe the bible as the true word of God or you don't

 

[RBR71]

I have been to multiple churches, multiple christian denominations in my life including my military service. I have asked many of these same questions and gotten different interpretations on what the bible says of these things. You still have biblical scholars today who disagree with many things in the bible so which one of those is right? If these men of the cloth can't agree who am I supposed to believe? All of them? I mean they can't all be right?

If you've been to "christian" churches that agree with the idea of no hell or in reincarnation, I submit to you those aren't legit Christian churches. The Bible nowhere no how supports any of those ideas.

 

[Rain Cold]

I have been to multiple churches, multiple christian denominations in my life including my military service. I have asked many of these same questions and gotten different interpretations on what the bible says of these things. You still have biblical scholars today who disagree with many things in the bible so which one of those is right? If these men of the cloth can't agree who am I supposed to believe? All of them? I mean they can't all be right?

Some Christian denominations are not Biblically sound. There is a lot more of that than their used to be, and I would suggest that much of that is due to worldly influence. When we start to input our own ideas and desires into Scripture, you end up with a lot of differing viewpoints. If you read the Bible carefully, it's pretty straightforward on many things. There are some things that aren't all that clear and need study, historical understanding, and cultural context. Not all churches that label themselves as "Christian churches" are preaching truth.

But we're talking about general ideas. If there is something specific where there's a question, we can look at that. You mentioned hell. Jesus talked about it a lot. It is a real place, not an idea. It is a place where you are apart from God forever. There aren't any second chances. It's agony and torment and loneliness forever. It's real. That is according to Jesus and the Bible. Anyone who claims to be a Christian evangelist and teaches something else, isn't teaching from the Bible. They are interjecting their own personal belief, which the Bible tells us not to do.

Also, the Bible has a lot to say about forgiveness, more than I can write here. But anything that you have done that you think is bad, wrong, horrible, unforgivable, etc. Jesus paid for that sin on the cross and it has been wiped away forever. Of course you are forgiven for the things you have done (that you mentioned), if you have accepted Christ. That's wonderful news because you don't have to carry that burden around anymore. You can let it go. That's the good news of the Gospel. If it were up to us and if God used our standard (instead of us using his), we would have to answer for those sins, and we would indeed have to carry that worry and that weight around with us for all of our lives. But we don't. The Bible tells us this over and over.

 

[Sandbar]

I really can't expound on @Rain Cold response. If you believe the things you say you do, then you do not believe the Bible and there's really no other way to put it. I'm not even sure how one can proclaim to accept Jesus as one's savior and have close relationship to God but then dispute God's own word.... I'm like RC not trying to be combative at all but you really cannot have it both ways. Either you believe the bible as the true word of God or you don't

You have put 100% of your trust in other men to interpret the word for you. Men who since they first began interpreting the word have dismissed certain scripture, changed scripture and still to this day can't agree on those interpretations. That's what I am supposed to just accept and not question? I mentioned the book of enoch multiple times. Is that scripture not valued? I would say Enoch was a very wise and important individual yet the roman catholic church removed it. Why?

 

[Sandbar]

Some Christian denominations are not Biblically sound. There is a lot more of that than their used to be, and I would suggest that much of that is due to worldly influence. When we start to input our own ideas and desires into Scripture, you end up with a lot of differing viewpoints. If you read the Bible carefully, it's pretty straightforward on many things. There are some things that aren't all that clear and need study, historical understanding, and cultural context. Not all churches that label themselves as "Christian churches" are preaching truth.

But we're talking about general ideas. If there is something specific where there's a question, we can look at that. You mentioned hell. Jesus talked about it a lot. It is a real place, not an idea. It is a place where you are apart from God forever. There aren't any second chances. It's agony and torment and loneliness forever. It's real. That is according to Jesus and the Bible. Anyone who claims to be a Christian evangelist and teaches something else, isn't teaching from the Bible. They are interjecting their own personal belief, which the Bible tells us not to do.

Also, the Bible has a lot to say about forgiveness, more than I can write here. But anything that you have done that you think is bad, wrong, horrible, unforgivable, etc. Jesus paid for that sin on the cross and it has been wiped away forever. Of course you are forgiven for the things you have done (that you mentioned), if you have accepted Christ. That's wonderful news because you don't have to carry that burden around anymore. You can let it go. That's the good news of the Gospel. If it were up to us and if God used our standard (instead of us using his), we would have to answer for those sins, and we would indeed have to carry that worry and that weight around with us for all of our lives. But we don't. The Bible tells us this over and over.

You don't get to cherry pick this. If it's the true word of god then biblical historians should all agree right? Your preacher is reading from a modern version of the bible that has been hacked to pieces for centuries. That's just a fact man. And you put your faith that they nailed it the first go around. What we are talking about here is evangelical versus protestant. I obviously lean protestant but that doesn't make me wrong

 

[Rain Cold]

You have put 100% of your trust in other men to interpret the word for you. Men who since they first began interpreting the word have dismissed certain scripture, changed scripture and still to this day can't agree on those interpretations. That's what I am supposed to just accept and not question? I mentioned the book of enoch multiple times. Is that scripture not valued? I would say Enoch was a very wise and important individual yet the roman catholic church removed it. Why?

It is WIDELY believed by numerous historians and Biblical scholars that the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch and instead was written by a bunch of unknown authors. If you read the Bible and read the book of Enoch, it is wildly different in doctrine than the rest of Scripture. It's like if 500 years from now you were alive and found a bunch of Shakespeare's works and then found another unknown work that said this: "See Spot run. See spot jump. Spot is a nice doggie. Listen to Spot bark. Woof woof, says Spot", and then you tried to argue that it was a work of Shakespeare.

 

[Rain Cold]

You don't get to cherry pick this. If it's the true word of god then biblical historians should all agree right? Your preacher is reading from a modern version of the bible that has been hacked to pieces for centuries. That's just a fact man. And you put your faith that they nailed it the first go around. What we are talking about here is evangelical versus protestant. I obviously lean protestant but that doesn't make me wrong

That is not a fact at all. You need to research how the canon was established. I told you the other day, you have access to the actual manuscripts, of which there are nearly 6000. That wasn't true 100 years ago. There is no other work of antiquity that even comes close. Homer's Iliad is second with 600. And people don't argue about the veracity of that. There's not that much actual disagreement within the Christian community around which books should make up the Bible. The Catholics add the apocrypha, which are not consistent with the rest of Scripture.

As far as translating goes, yes there are variations there, but they do not fundamentally change core doctrines. The adherence to the historical manuscripts is very very very good. It is nothing like you are suggesting, where stuff was added and changed and manipulated. That is fiction made up to try and discredit the Bible and is provably false. 99.5% of any inconsistencies down through the ages and across different translations are due to punctuation, grammar, and word variations that don't alter the meaning. The other 0.5% (or less) are irrelevant to core theology (i.e. nothing related to anything that we've been discussing).

 

[Sandbar]

It is WIDELY believed by numerous historians and Biblical scholars that the book of Enoch was not written by Enoch and instead was written by a bunch of unknown authors. If you read the Bible and read the book of Enoch, it is wildly different in doctrine than the rest of Scripture. It's like if 500 years from now you were alive and found a bunch of Shakespeare's works and then found another unknown work that said this: "See Spot run. See spot jump. Spot is a nice doggie. Listen to Spot bark. Woof woof, says Spot", and then you tried to argue that it was a work of Shakespeare.

LOL......Is the information wrong or did it just not jive with what the roman catholic church wanted in the bible? I mean the bible has multiple authors as well correct? The bible is basically a library of books chosen by men to be included in the bible after they interpreted what it meant and created a list of criteria that had to be met before it was included in the bible. You have put a lot of faith in a lot of people over the centuries that I'm not willing to do.

 

[Sandbar]

That is not a fact at all. You need to research how the canon was established. I told you the other day, you have access to the actual manuscripts, of which there are nearly 6000. That wasn't true 100 years ago. There is no other work of antiquity that even comes close. Homer's Iliad is second with 600. And people don't argue about the veracity of that. There's not that much actual disagreement within the Christian community around which books should make up the Bible. The Catholics add the apocrypha, which are not consistent with the rest of Scripture.

As far as translating goes, yes there are variations there, but they do not fundamentally change core doctrines. The adherence to the historical manuscripts is very very very good. It is nothing like you are suggesting, where stuff was added and changed and manipulated. That is fiction made up to try and discredit the Bible and is provably false. 99.5% of any inconsistencies down through the ages and across different translations are due to punctuation, grammar, and word variations that don't alter the meaning. The other 0.5% (or less) are irrelevant to core theology (i.e. nothing related to anything that we've been discussing).

This is nothing more than opinion raincold. It's your personal opinion and nothing more.