Misc All Things Religious

[Philstorm91]

As a Christian, I see the purpose of prayer to be more about us realizing our dependence on God for more than just more stuff. It's also about us growing in these experiences with him, regardless of the answers to the prayer. We don't make a Christmas wish list for God to check off for us like he's Saint Nick. Sure, that would be real nice, but then he knows that we wouldn't grow much through that. In weather, we all try to "pray the storm away". Sometimes, God does, and it turns away or weakens (preferably the latter). Sometimes everybody gets their prayers answered and the storm is just a fish storm. But sometimes the storm happens anyway. He knows best in these situations.

And like others have pointed out earlier, this world is fallen, with Satan at work creating chaos and causing destruction. The story of the human race has been one mistake after another since that fateful day in the garden long ago. So it might be better to say that God allows things to take their natural course of events.

 

[pcbjr]

6:13 I will never get back. I’ll have to pray a little longer tonight after watching that poop. WOW


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You don't need to "pray" in a formal sense always ... prayer is also acting (or not) in the right way with a little invisible guidance and a little personal knowledge about why you are or are not doing something ... and a quick "thank you" for guidance ... in fact, the Our Father, is the only truly formal prayer in the Bible (New Testament, anyways) ... and the Our Father is thanking for food and asking for forgiveness for and forgiving trespasses ... not for miracles ...

 

[Rain Cold]

In its basic form of a yes or no question it is avoided like the plaque. When it is answered it answered with a lot of "god wouldn't be tested" and or that's "illogical and cant be answered".

My grandfather was a preacher and I certainly had a christian background but at age 13 or 14 it just didnt make sense anymore.

Gotcha. I tend to view it as an irrational question. The Bible tells us much about God's power and capabilities. God is omnipotent -- all powerful. He can do anything that it takes power to do. But it also tells us things about his nature. For example, he cannot sin. He cannot not exist. Logic and rationality are part of his nature. The extending principle is that he doesn't operate against his nature.

The question attempts to simplify the nature of God and also pretend as though we have a comprehensive knowledge of all things, in order to function as a quick "gotcha" toward Christianity.

It's not a yes or no question because its core premise is flawed.

 

[Fountainguy97]

In its basic form of a yes or no question it is avoided like the plaque. When it is answered it answered with a lot of "god wouldn't be tested" and or that's "illogical and cant be answered".

No.

God is above and transcends all of the universe including all laws of physics.

Gravity is one of those laws and “weight” is just a measure of gravity’s impact on an object.

God is not limited by gravity so the entire question is illogical.

Really the question isn’t a valid question to begin with. But lets entertain it.

God is not capable of being “out-powered.” As that’s what omnipotence is so no “God could not create a rock he can’t lift.” He is omnipotent.... but the question doesn’t matter because He is not bound by The laws of the physical universe as we are.

Omnipotence is defined and reserved to actual logical events (logic is man-made and will not be 100% foolproof, but in these cases it is explainable). “Can he make a square circle?” Obviously not because the definition of a circle is not a square. That breaks the law of non-contradiction which is a basic law in logic. Square and circle contradict each other and thereby cannot be the same thing.

 

[EastAtlwx]

I can find cartoons on any network, but I choose not to ...

So I post an informative video that makes a good point and instead of a response trying to counter the argument/points in the video, I get responses like “that’s 6:15 of my life I will never get back”... and your post above, pcbjr. I would like have a debate/discussion on these topics in the future, but if I’m just going to get disrespectful remarks like this then I’ll just stop posting here.

 

[Rain Cold]

So I post an informative video that makes a good point and instead of a response trying to counter the argument/points in the video, I get responses like “that’s 6:15 of my life I will never get back”... and your post above, pcbjr. I would like have a debate/discussion on these topics in the future, but if I’m just going to get disrespectful remarks like this then I’ll just stop posting here.

I'm struggling with the notion of knowing what someone will choose means they don't have free will to choose it. I know that 10 out of 10 times when we go to Dairy Queen, my son will get a chocolate ice cream cone. I present him with plenty of other options, and he chooses chocolate. According to the video, that means he doesn't have free will. I would have to completely reject that premise.

 

[Fountainguy97]

So I post an informative video that makes a good point and instead of a response trying to counter the argument/points in the video, I get responses like “that’s 6:15 of my life I will never get back”... and your post above, pcbjr. I would like have a debate/discussion on these topics in the future, but if I’m just going to get disrespectful remarks like this then I’ll just stop posting here.

Free will is an insanely deep topic and one that a 6minute video will not even come close to explaining. (Yawhale is mildly offensive)

Omniscience is another man-made description of a God that we can never describe perfectly and is subject to a lot of issues.

free will is mostly used in the Calvinistic vs Arminian arguement.

God knowing the course and decisions a person makes does not take away free will. God just knows the decision!

That in no way influences or makes the human loose the freedom to choose.
From our view we have complete free will to choose.

God KNOWS the outcome. He doesn’t force the person to choose that outcome. It’s All-knowing not All-forcing.

Another thing to remember is God doesn’t even operate on the same timeline we do. We see time on the second by second scale where God transcends above the plane of time. Time to Him is nothing. We view God’s omniscience as God knowing the future but that’s not how God sees it. In the video they use examples of “x” choice leads to “x” which leads to “x”. Well what if God doesn’t view decisions on a linear timeline like that?? This is basically mind blowing and one of those facts we just have to believe in as Christians as our minds can’t really grasp that concept. And even I have no clue how God really views time.



The last section of the clip talks abt how can a loving God knowingly create a human who will end up in Hell.

That’s easy. God loves everyone and desires that none go to Hell! That’s clearly seen in Scripture. A parent spanks a kid because they love that child and want to see them improve.

Punishment is a form of love. Eternal damnation is thereby a form of love. (I know that’s a weird statement and one that is pretty hard on the emotions we have as humans but remember God doesn’t operate on the human level. Not even close.) love does not equal everyone going to Heaven Even though that is God’s ultimate wish. Sin destroyed that perfect world God initially began and hence a loving God can know a person goes to Hell and still be a loving God. He loves that person but they still have to accept the consequences of their decisions.


I probably just made it way more confusing and we can spend days and days giving into Bible verses and tons of little corners of omniscience.

A lot of it we will never fully understand. That’s why it’s a “faith-based” religion

 

[Metwannabe]

I'm not a theologian, I'm not fancy with words, I don't know word origins, etc etc.... the last line of fountainguy97 post sums it up, it's a faith based religion. But faith based with tons of evidence, creation for instance, anyway this is how I sum up free will. God created us and He loves his creation unconditionally (agape, I know that one), He desires a relationship with all of his creation but He will not force it. If you force someone to love you is it true love, if you force someone into a relationship is it a genuine relationship and the answer is no. He knows what choices we will make but he allows us to make those choices, He would that none would perish but he allows us to decide. Where would be the need for faith, how could we possibly grow, why would we even communicate or call on him if he forced our decisions. If he saved everyone regardless of their faith, actions or beliefs?



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[Shaggy]

Free will is an insanely deep topic and one that a 6minute video will not even come close to explaining. (Yawhale is mildly offensive)

Omniscience is another man-made description of a God that we can never describe perfectly and is subject to a lot.

A lot of it we will never fully understand. That’s why it’s a “faith-based” religion

This ability to define god in an undefinable way is really the only way religions can work. There can't be a definitive reason because that will tear holes in the narrative of religion.

It allows for vague responses and defined terms that are designed to always allow god to be right and bad things to be explained away.

 

[Philstorm91]

This ability to define god in an undefinable way is really the only way religions can work. There can't be a definitive reason because that will tear holes in the narrative of religion.

It allows for vague responses and defined terms that are designed to always allow god to be right and bad things to be explained away.

Christians say that God is not fully or completely defined because he is outside the limits of time and our plane of existence. Actually, if we could go fetch God and test and measure his essence if you will, I would say that would disprove that he's God. Why? Because to fully comprehend something or someone is for the object or person to be on our level of existence, our level of complexity, etc. Basically he cannot be just another entity for him to have the attributes Christians say that he has - omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and so forth. So, in a way, not being able to accurately measure God up in our finite and flawed knowledge only lends to the argument that he is who we believe he says he is. I hope that's not confusing - I didn't mean to ramble this long to comment on your point.

 

[Fountainguy97]

This ability to define god in an undefinable way is really the only way religions can work. There can't be a definitive reason because that will tear holes in the narrative of religion.

It allows for vague responses and defined terms that are designed to always allow god to be right and bad things to be explained away.

The thing is, is your narrative is also the same circle.

If I claim I can definitely 100% explain away every single aspect of God who created everything then I am either a) god b) insane.

But then when the “vague areas” (as you put them) come up it’s an arguement against me.



That’s just how it is. We can’t understand it all. Why did “x” get cancer? I don’t know.. I can’t begin to comprehend why that happened or why God allowed it to happen. How can we as finite beings understand that?

But that’s just the point. It’s not our place or purpose in life to know everything about God. That’s why God is God and we are not.

I know it’s hard to get past that but that’s not the point of Christianity or God. The point of Christianity is to a) worship our creator through every facet of life (work, song, etc etc etc) b) spread the gospel and help others come to know Him (which is a form of worship).

God didn’t intend us to debate tiny attributes of Him that we can’t even understand anyway.

(No I’m not trying to get out of answering questions at all)


God loves everyone in this world.

John 3:16 KJV
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He would have no one go to Hell but the choice is up to us to come to Him.

We are all sinners and imperfect and in need of a Savior.

Jesus Christ died on the cross for all so that ALL can be saved should they accept that FREE gift of Salvation.

That’s the Gospel in a tiny nutshell. Why do bad things happen in this world? Because this world is a place full of sin. The moment sin entered the world things like death and cancer and all that suffering came to be.

Being saved and following God isn’t a fix all for that! In fact the devil is after Christians. See the story of Job in the Old Testament. One of God’s most faithful men and he lost EVERYTHING he could possibly lose. And he did nothing wrong at all to deserve that.

People get sick. People get killed. Things happen to saved and lost people. Following God is not a promise of an easy life. Buts it’s a promise of salvation and eternity in heaven and the opportunity to spend your life worshipping the God who created you and telling others the good news!

 

[Fountainguy97]

Christians say that God is not fully or completely defined because he is outside the limits of time and our plane of existence. Actually, if we could go fetch God and test and measure his essence if you will, I would say that would disprove that he's God. Why? Because to fully comprehend something or someone is for the object or person to be on our level of existence, our level of complexity, etc. Basically he cannot be just another entity for him to have the attributes Christians say that he has - omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, and so forth. So, in a way, not being able to accurately measure God up in our finite and flawed knowledge only lends to the argument that he is who we believe he says he is. I hope that's not confusing - I didn't mean to ramble this long to comment on your point.

Very well said.

 

[EastAtlwx]

I'm struggling with the notion of knowing what someone will choose means they don't have free will to choose it. I know that 10 out of 10 times when we go to Dairy Queen, my son will get a chocolate ice cream cone. I present him with plenty of other options, and he chooses chocolate. According to the video, that means he doesn't have free will. I would have to completely reject that premise.

God created us, knows exactly what we are going to do (before he made us)... now think about that for one moment.. thats not free will. This is explained clearly in the video.

 

[GaWx]

God created us, knows exactly what we are going to do (before he made us)... now think about that for one moment.. thats not free will. This is explained clearly in the video.

If a psychic knows what a person is going to do, does that mean that person has no free will and is instead controlled by the psychic?

 

[EastAtlwx]

If a psychic knows what a person is going to do, does that mean that person has no free will and is instead controlled by the psychic?

You are missing the point, the important part that god created us. We have no choice whether we are alive or not. He knows everything that will happen and will happen. Therefore, we have no free will. Some are literally born on this earth to end up murderers, others on this earth to end up going to hell. Determinism that comes with an omniscient god and free will are incompatible through logic. I used to be a firm believer in god but it all changed a couple summers ago when I decided to stop being so dogmatic and look into the other side with an open mind and see where they’re coming from. It took about 2 weeks of researching and watching guys like Matt dillahunty that truly exposed all the logical fallacious, assumptions, and all the trickery in the Bible. It also showed me that the god of the Bible is actually an evil god. That’s a hot take here but that’s just my opinion.

 

[GaWx]

You are missing the point, the important part that god created us. We have no choice whether we are alive or not. He knows everything that will happen and will happen. Therefore, we have no free will. Some are literally born on this earth to end up murderers, others on this earth to end up going to hell. Determinism that comes with an omniscient god and free will are incompatible through logic. I used to be a firm believer in god but it all changed a couple summers ago when I decided to stop being so dogmatic and look into the other side with an open mind and see where they’re coming from. It took about 2 weeks of researching and watching guys like Matt dillahunty that truly exposed all the logical fallacious, assumptions, and all the trickery in the Bible. It also showed me that the god of the Bible is actually an evil god. That’s a hot take here but that’s just my opinion.

You don't think consciousness is a miracle?

 

[EastAtlwx]

You don't think consciousness is a miracle?

Remember that I am agnostic. I do thing there is something higher than us. However, I do not think it is god at least in the way the Bible describes him. I don’t think miracle is a good word to approach really any concept of anything. I think people get too ‘hype’ in it, if that makes any sense kinda tired lol. I think there is something fundamental behind consciousness. My speculation (I must bold this word because really all our views are because we really don’t know) is that consciousness in itself may be god is some sense. If you ever heard the phrase, “we are all one” I think there may be some truth there.

 

[Deleted member 1449]

No. It was an open ended prayer that had many possible outcomes and it just happened I met another girl named jennifer.

No real life or death prayers ever get answered.

Jump out of an airplane with no parachute and pray god stops you from hitting the ground.

Play Russian roulette and pray god stops the bullet when you get to that one right spot.

Get diagnosed with glioblastoma and pray to be cured

See someone with final stage alzheimer and pray they get their memory back.

See when you get right down to the real miracles they dont ever happen. Only answered prayers are the ones that can be twisted and perceived as answered......you know the "god works in mysterious ways" answers.

I can see why you say this but just last week I had a church member hospitalized with unexplained neurological symptoms. She had been in the hospital for about 24 hours when so visited, at which point they had no answers and she had no relief from her symptoms. I visited and prayed and then left. Within an hour of my visit her symptoms disappeared and she was released from the hospital the following day.

It could all be a coincidence, I grant you that. But I don’t think it was.

 

[Rain Cold]

I can see why you say this but just last week I had a church member hospitalized with unexplained neurological symptoms. She had been in the hospital for about 24 hours when so visited, at which point they had no answers and she had no relief from her symptoms. I visited and prayed and then left. Within an hour of my visit her symptoms disappeared and she was released from the hospital the following day.

It could all be a coincidence, I grant you that. But I don’t think it was.

Can you come visit me? I need a job!

 

[Rain Cold]

Seriously though, re: prayer -- The Bible contains many examples of people praying and having their prayers answered. It also contains examples of people praying and not having their prayers answered in the way they want. But the overarching precept is that we are instructed to pray. We're supposed to do it.