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Misc All Things Religious

Downeastnc

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Regarding what I bolded: This is 100% false. From where did you get that info? Judaism is the first monotheistic religion. Actually, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, the three major monotheistic religions, all believe in and worship the same almighty creator. I assume most people know this from basic history, even if they aren't a member of any of these three religions.
This is not as well known as you think, IMO a lot of Christians do not in fact know or believe this to be true, especially regarding Islam.....I have made that point to numerous Christians who express disbelief or get mad even at the suggestion that Muslims worship the same god as they do.....
 

GaWx

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This is not as well known as you think, IMO a lot of Christians do not in fact know or believe this to be true, especially regarding Islam.....I have made that point to numerous Christians who express disbelief or get mad even at the suggestion that Muslims worship the same god as they do.....
Wow, really? That's surprising as they should know better just from basic history. How do they not know this? You probably know the following: Islam is very much intertwined with these other two monotheistic religions as they consider Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon among others from Judaism, as prophets. and also Jesus and John the Baptist among others, from Christianity, as prophets.
 

Poimen

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Rather than saying all three worship the same God, it would be better to say that both Christianity and Islam share common roots with Judaism. Though there is much more continuity between Judaism and Christianity.
 
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GaWx

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Rather than saying all three worship the same God, it would be better to say that both Christianity and Islam share common roots with Judaism.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. But don't you also agree that they all 3 worship the same almighty creator?
 

pcbjr

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Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. But don't you also agree that they all 3 worship the same almighty creator?
It is a good way to put it. On the 2nd point, in some respects it's heads, tails and the ribbed side of the coin ... IMHO ...
 

GaWx

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It is a good way to put it. On the 2nd point, in some respects it's heads, tails and the ribbed side of the coin ... IMHO ...
Phil, what do you mean by what I bolded? I don't follow you.
 

Downeastnc

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Rather than saying all three worship the same God, it would be better to say that both Christianity and Islam share common roots with Judaism. Though there is much more continuity between Judaism and Christianity.
I think the term Abrahamic religions is a good descriptor for the big 3, the "God of Abraham" is the one they all worship, so in that aspect they do in fact all believe in the same monotheistic god but there are many places where they diverge.....but Yahweh and Allah are the same God.
 

Poimen

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I don't know that it's fair to say that Muslims worship the same God. While they claim we are all "people of the book" and the Koran mentions many of the OT prophets and Jesus; the Muslims didn't come to be for another ~600 years after Jesus, claiming that the other two had corrupted the true teachings of God/Allah. Other than the biblical prophets/Jesus, there is not much of a connection.

Christianity and Judaism are much different. Unlike Islam, Christianity was born out of Judaism. Jesus was a Jew as were his twelve disciples and most of the 120 remaining at the time of his ascension. The Romans viewed the early Christians as a "Jewish sect" and Christians believe that Jesus was Yahwheh (LORD/God of the OT) in human flesh.
 

NCSNOW

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Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims Worship the Same God?
by Todd Friel on March 1, 2018; last featured October 13, 2019
Audio Version

Jesus slammed the door shut on this question in John 8:19 when he blasted the Pharisees for not acknowledging his deity: “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
In other words, if you do not worship Jesus, you do not worship the Father, either. Neither Jews nor Muslims worship Jesus; therefore, they do not worship the same God.
Why Is This Question Even Asked?
While this question is likely raised because postmodernism demands that all roads lead to God, it still has some validity because of a man we meet in the book of Genesis: Abraham.
Islam claims Abraham is the father of their religion, but that does not automatically mean we worship the same God. For starters, the Koran teaches that Abraham’s promised descendants come through Ishmael, not Isaac. Worse than that, the Koran does not portray Abraham’s Allah as the kind, compassionate, loving Yahweh of the Bible (Exodus 34:6–7; John 3:16).
Allah loves only those who first love him (Qur’an 3:31–32) or who do good deeds (2:195). God first loves us while we are yet sinning (I John 4:10; Romans 5:8). The Koran’s Allah and the Bible’s Yahweh are simply not the same deity with the same attributes.
Things get a bit trickier with Judaism because the Old Testament God is “the Father” of the Christian Trinity. Jesus made it clear that Jews who worship only one-third of the Trinity do not rightly worship the true and living God. That is why every single orthodox creed of Christianity states that only those who worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will be saved.
You might think this is uncharitable, but conservative Muslims and Jews agree that the three Abrahamic faiths do not worship the same God. As for liberal Muslims and Jews who claim we do, their refusal to bend the knee to Jesus renders their claim meaningless.
What Do We Do With This Knowledge?
Knowing that incorrect theology is damnable should give us two unshakable convictions:
  1. It is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith that has been handed down to us (Jude 3).
  2. It is the Christian’s high honor to proclaim that salvation is found in no other name than Jesus (Acts 4:12).
Jesus himself would tell the most devout Muslim or Jew, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36). If we love Muslims and Jews, we will (lovingly) tell them the same thing.
 

GaWx

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Do Christians, Jews, and Muslims Worship the Same God?
by Todd Friel on March 1, 2018; last featured October 13, 2019
Audio Version

Jesus slammed the door shut on this question in John 8:19 when he blasted the Pharisees for not acknowledging his deity: “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
In other words, if you do not worship Jesus, you do not worship the Father, either. Neither Jews nor Muslims worship Jesus; therefore, they do not worship the same God.
Why Is This Question Even Asked?
While this question is likely raised because postmodernism demands that all roads lead to God, it still has some validity because of a man we meet in the book of Genesis: Abraham.
Islam claims Abraham is the father of their religion, but that does not automatically mean we worship the same God. For starters, the Koran teaches that Abraham’s promised descendants come through Ishmael, not Isaac. Worse than that, the Koran does not portray Abraham’s Allah as the kind, compassionate, loving Yahweh of the Bible (Exodus 34:6–7; John 3:16).
Allah loves only those who first love him (Qur’an 3:31–32) or who do good deeds (2:195). God first loves us while we are yet sinning (I John 4:10; Romans 5:8). The Koran’s Allah and the Bible’s Yahweh are simply not the same deity with the same attributes.
Things get a bit trickier with Judaism because the Old Testament God is “the Father” of the Christian Trinity. Jesus made it clear that Jews who worship only one-third of the Trinity do not rightly worship the true and living God. That is why every single orthodox creed of Christianity states that only those who worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will be saved.
You might think this is uncharitable, but conservative Muslims and Jews agree that the three Abrahamic faiths do not worship the same God. As for liberal Muslims and Jews who claim we do, their refusal to bend the knee to Jesus renders their claim meaningless.
What Do We Do With This Knowledge?
Knowing that incorrect theology is damnable should give us two unshakable convictions:
  1. It is the Christian’s duty to contend earnestly for the faith that has been handed down to us (Jude 3).
  2. It is the Christian’s high honor to proclaim that salvation is found in no other name than Jesus (Acts 4:12).
Jesus himself would tell the most devout Muslim or Jew, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him” (John 3:36). If we love Muslims and Jews, we will (lovingly) tell them the same thing.
I think the best thing to do here is to agree to disagree. Religious debates can get very dicey just like with politics with folks never coming into agreement due to differences in beliefs. It isn't worth it to go on.
I'm glad we live in a country in which all religions (and nonreligions like atheism) can be practiced freely with no one religion or non-religion being treated as superior or inferior to the others.
 
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Condemning someone to a literal eternity in hell because they wont believe in you is pretty petty, especially for a all powerful being who can prove its existence to every person if they so choose to.....instead they expect people to believe in them with no real proof.

A person is not condemed to Hell because they won't believe in Him; a person goes to Hell (which is complete separation from God and all his attributes) beacuse his or her sin separates them from Him and they do not have the ability to reconcile themself back to Him. That was the purpose of Jesus. God is not a sky version of "the Great and Powerful Oz," trying to intimidate people or getting mad if they don't stroke his ego. Those are human traits and He is not human.

As for proof; yeah, God could easily show himself on a mountain top and "prove he exists" but I think that would cause major probelms with the reality of free will and love. Faith is essential (which must be held without "proof") because only in a world with free will and faith (without proof) is true love possible. True love is not possible if people have no free will or if God forces himself on people (like a true dictator would). A person must be given the choice to love Him or not. A world with a lack of free will would eliminate that choice and a world with proof would easliy cause a separation between belief and love. Belief without love would be empty.


Fear is a great motivator, I was raised in the church, when I begin to question whether god was real or not my fear of going to hell for even thinking those thoughts was huge, its was very hard to shake the indoctrination I was programmed so hard that I was doomed to hell that it kept my 13 yr old self awake all night for many many nights as I wrestled with things in my mind as to how I felt there was no way god was real yet the fear of hell felt very real. Ultimately that is one of the things that helped me realize religion is about control.

My guess is you are not alone here. I will agree that many Christians focus too much on the "Hell and fear" side of Christinity when it comes to teaching and sharing. Those are certainly important to think about but the main part of the message shoud be about love, redemption, hope, and freedom.

Fear is indeed powerful. You present fear as a reason some believe ("I'm scared of Hell so I'll try to believe this"). Yet, ironically, many turn away from God, or even vehemently deny or hate Him, out of fear. Many people are scared of the idea of not having ultimate control of their lives and terrified that they may have to answer for their lives and that it has ultimate meaning. Many escape their fear by simply denying God. Many people don't want God to exist.

BTW, questioning whether or not God is real (as you did) is perfectly fine, normal, and even healthy. Faith in anything should be questioned and reasoned. Without it, how can one be sure their belief holds any meaning?


God(s) are a construct of man, in the beginning gods explained the unexplained, then men found they could use god to control the masses and it was all downhill from there.

I couldn't disagree more. I believe we are a construct of God (not gods). It's true that some have used religion for control, but in truth, God is about freedom. Freedom from bondage, from the pain and the error of the world, and from the brokeness of man.
Thoughts above.
 

NCSNOW

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I think the best thing to do here is to agree to disagree. Religious debates can get very dicey just like with politics with folks never coming into agreement due to differences in beliefs. It isn't worth it to go on.
I'm glad we live in a country in which all religions (and nonreligions like atheism) can be practiced freely with no one religion or non-religion being treated as superior or inferior to the others.
I have no problem with that. Its everyones free will to choose what,whom they beleive in. God has a free offer and he leaves it up to us individually to accept or reject.

Saw the post on this topic. Im to lazy to type so posted that article. But you can go back to Abraham and Sarah in the bible and see where Islam retraces its roots back the birth of a son Abraham had with his handmaid against Gods will. Later on God delivered on his promise and Sarah, Abrahams wife finally conceived.
As far as Judaism and Christianity. They are in lock step pretty much until you get to the new testament, book of Mathew. Judaism is still waiting on the 1st appearance of the Messiah, while chistianity has already embraced him ,Jesus Christ. We are waiting on his second and final appearance here on earth,just as he promised. Hope that helps anyone hunting the cliffsnotes version.
But make no mistake, we do not worship the same God that is for sure and is an untrue statement.
 

Tornadocane

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All for unity and this is not meant to offend, but Jews and Christians do not believe in the same God. While it’s true that we share a bible and some traditions, the concept of Jesus as God’s son or body is a contradiction to Talmudic (Jewish) law, which completely prohibits any physical representation or images of God. In Judaism, it is the same as violating both the first three commandments. The belief that Jesus is the son the God, and the notion that this message came from God, is tantamount to the Christian people having other Gods (Jesus and the other God that sent him). God can only deliver a message to man. In Judaism, God does not take on the physical appearance or soul of man.

The whole idea of Jews, Christians, and Muslims having the same God is more about social unity than a universal truth about everyone serving the same deity. When Christians and Muslims took Jews to slaughter their enemies, it was good for comaraderie for all the soldiers to be united against a common foe. The modern use of this idea has also been used to promote social acceptance and peace within communities by giving diverse religious groups some commonality and shared experience, and even religious leaders got on board with it to prevent communal violence. Morons that have some kind of bond with their neighbor are less likely to incite or take part in a hate crime. In other words, we know when, where and why this fabrication was promoted. It’s a good idea. Rabbis may even promote it cause telling lies to save a life and prevent violence is a debatable question in Judaism. But the reality is that the Jewish and Christian God are not the same, and that is what we understand, and we do - cannot - use that difference to incite or engage in acts of violence.
 

Poimen

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All for unity and this is not meant to offend, but Jews and Christians do not believe in the same God. While it’s true that we share a bible and some traditions, the concept of Jesus as God’s son or body is a contradiction to Talmudic (Jewish) law, which completely prohibits any physical representation or images of God. In Judaism, it is the same as violating both the first three commandments. The belief that Jesus is the son the God, and the notion that this message came from God, is tantamount to the Christian people having other Gods (Jesus and the other God that sent him). God can only deliver a message to man. In Judaism, God does not take on the physical appearance or soul of man.

The whole idea of Jews, Christians, and Muslims having the same God is more about social unity than a universal truth about everyone serving the same deity. When Christians and Muslims took Jews to slaughter their enemies, it was good for comaraderie for all the soldiers to be united against a common foe. The modern use of this idea has also been used to promote social acceptance and peace within communities by giving diverse religious groups some commonality and shared experience, and even religious leaders got on board with it to prevent communal violence. Morons that have some kind of bond with their neighbor are less likely to incite or take part in a hate crime. In other words, we know when, where and why this fabrication was promoted. It’s a good idea. Rabbis may even promote it cause telling lies to save a life and prevent violence is a debatable question in Judaism. But the reality is that the Jewish and Christian God are not the same, and that is what we understand, and we do - cannot - use that difference to incite or engage in acts of violence.
Not to argue and I think I understand your point but Jesus did claim to be the God of what we call the OT. He told his Jewish audience “I and the Father are one.” In John 8:58 he made a clear claim to being “I AM”, a reference to God’s revelation of his name to Moses in the burning bush.

Christians certainly see them as one and the same, but this makes sense because we claim both the OT/NT as Christian Scripture. I can certainly see how Jews would see it differently though.
 

Tornadocane

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Not to argue and I think I understand your point but Jesus did claim to be the God of what we call the OT. He told his Jewish audience “I and the Father are one.” In John 8:58 he made a clear claim to being “I AM”, a reference to God’s revelation of his name to Moses in the burning bush.

Christians certainly see them as one and the same, but this makes sense because we claim both the OT/NT as Christian Scripture. I can certainly see how Jews would see it differently though.
Argue? You're being extremely respectful. Like I said, we share a book and some traditions. However, Jewish law isn't just the bible. It's also the Talmud - the interpretations of the law that was carried through time via oral laws and tradition. What I give Jesus credit for is inspiring the authors to write down many of those oral teachings into the new testament, which are found in sections of the Jewish law called the Talmud. The Talmud is the interpretation of God's law by the rabbinical counsel - laws that have found their way into Western European and US law, particularly family (e.g. alimony and child support). The main beef with Christianity is that the authors of Jesus' story wrote that he was God, and they engraved images of him in crosses. That's false Gods and idols to the Jewish interpretations. It's really all in the details. If Jesus had been described by the authors as the prophet or messiah (cause though shalt not take the lord's name in vein), then we'd all have the same God, because the descriptions of Jesus Christ are heroic and selfless, and there are certainly some uniquely positive messages in Christianity that would/did blend into the Jewish culture.

I don't know where else to go with it. We're all God's children trying to right by him/her/he-she (I like to think god has a sense of humor). We are all made in his image. In Judaism, we don't need a physical/emotional/psychological representation of God, because we are all his expression of those aspects. All our rage, uncertainty, love, whatever. It's like Noah and the Ark. God was angry. He flooded the world. He felt regret. So he said he wouldn't do it again. That is so human. That is God. This is the point of Judaism that gets me in trouble with Rabbis, and I've been chastised for it. Not because I'm wrong. But because it's just a universal truth. We are all God's children, and we all have the ability to be selfless. Christlike. I don't know. It's just a thought.
 

Bham 99

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Argue? You're being extremely respectful. Like I said, we share a book and some traditions. However, Jewish law isn't just the bible. It's also the Talmud - the interpretations of the law that was carried through time via oral laws and tradition. What I give Jesus credit for is inspiring the authors to write down many of those oral teachings into the new testament, which are found in sections of the Jewish law called the Talmud. The Talmud is the interpretation of God's law by the rabbinical counsel - laws that have found their way into Western European and US law, particularly family (e.g. alimony and child support). The main beef with Christianity is that the authors of Jesus' story wrote that he was God, and they engraved images of him in crosses. That's false Gods and idols to the Jewish interpretations. It's really all in the details. If Jesus had been described by the authors as the prophet or messiah (cause though shalt not take the lord's name in vein), then we'd all have the same God, because the descriptions of Jesus Christ are heroic and selfless, and there are certainly some uniquely positive messages in Christianity that would/did blend into the Jewish culture.

I don't know where else to go with it. We're all God's children trying to right by him/her/he-she (I like to think god has a sense of humor). We are all made in his image. In Judaism, we don't need a physical/emotional/psychological representation of God, because we are all his expression of those aspects. All our rage, uncertainty, love, whatever. It's like Noah and the Ark. God was angry. He flooded the world. He felt regret. So he said he wouldn't do it again. That is so human. That is God. This is the point of Judaism that gets me in trouble with Rabbis, and I've been chastised for it. Not because I'm wrong. But because it's just a universal truth. We are all God's children, and we all have the ability to be selfless. Christlike. I don't know. It's just a thought.
Thanks for the info. You always have a good insight.
 

Cad Wedge NC

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Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. But don't you also agree that they all 3 worship the same almighty creator?
Where they diverge is their belief in Jesus Christ. Only Christians believe that He is the Son of God. Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ and His gift.
 

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Where they diverge is their belief in Jesus Christ. Only Christians believe that He is the Son of God. Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ and His gift.
Yeah, I know this. Related to this, I know that the other two don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah despite his being Jewish (Judaism still waiting for the Messiah) though Islam does classify him as a prophet. What first got me to post here was an erroneous statement by @Matthew70 about Judaism not believing in the big guy upstairs at all.
 
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NCSNOW

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In NC you can have service outside starting Sunday. Lawnchairs,just stay 6 feet aprt. No more sitting in a car. Course with sunday temps, may want the car lol
 

pcbjr

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Where they diverge is their belief in Jesus Christ. Only Christians believe that He is the Son of God. Christians believe that the only way to Heaven is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ and His gift.
Yeah, I know this. Related to this, I know that the other two don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah despite his being Jewish (Judaism still waiting for the Messiah) though Islam does classify him as a prophet. What first got me to post here was an erroneous statement by @Matthew70 about Judaism not believing in the big guy upstairs at all.
I did not know that folks who were never exposed to Christianity could not go to heaven ... where are all the good folks who lived in Africa, North America, South America, Asia, Australia ... for say 1700 plus years? I do not recall Jesus saying that Moses and Abraham and Isaac (who could not have "accepted" Jesus, being before His time), or American/Native Indians or Australian Aborigines or Eskimos, or Cave people are/were banned ...
 

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Yeah, I know this. Related to this, I know that the other two don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah despite his being Jewish (Judaism still waiting for the Messiah) though Islam does classify him as a prophet. What first got me to post here was an erroneous statement by @Matthew70 about Judaism not believing in the big guy upstairs at all.
My apologies. I meant they don’t believe in Jesus as the savior.
 

Matthew70

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I did not know that folks who were never exposed to Christianity could not go to heaven ... where are all the good folks who lived in Africa, North America, South America, Asia, Australia ... for say 1700 plus years? I do not recall Jesus saying that Moses and Abraham and Isaac (who could not have "accepted" Jesus, being before His time), or American/Native Indians or Australian Aborigines or Eskimos, or Cave people are/were banned ...
That’s my thinking also. We have a God that loves us but creates people to just go to hell? That’s why I don’t discuss my Christianity much or get into discussions. I believe people have to find what they believe and not what others believe. Everyone has a different interpretation of the scriptures and what they mean. No one can truly say their way is completely wo a doubt the correct way and beliefs. When I say completely I mean with living actual no doubt proof.
 

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I did not know that folks who were never exposed to Christianity could not go to heaven ... where are all the good folks who lived in Africa, North America, South America, Asia, Australia ... for say 1700 plus years? I do not recall Jesus saying that Moses and Abraham and Isaac (who could not have "accepted" Jesus, being before His time), or American/Native Indians or Australian Aborigines or Eskimos, or Cave people are/were banned ...
This also applies to all folks alive today. These are just beliefs, regardless. Nobody could possibly know where any of us are going after we pass away. Beliefs, even strong, don't equate to knowing. The tendency is for one to believe in what's consistent with their religion, which in most cases was randomly chosen based on their parents' religion.

The important thing in my mind is to not feel superior to others, whose religion was likely randomly chosen for them at birth, just because they believe in a different religion or even no religion. That's arrogance and implies superiority. All of us humans are created equal.

This applies also to someone converting to whatever religion. That's their choice to do so. People should respect that choice.
 
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I did not know that folks who were never exposed to Christianity could not go to heaven ... where are all the good folks who lived in Africa, North America, South America, Asia, Australia ... for say 1700 plus years? I do not recall Jesus saying that Moses and Abraham and Isaac (who could not have "accepted" Jesus, being before His time), or American/Native Indians or Australian Aborigines or Eskimos, or Cave people are/were banned ...
Paul makes the point in the NT that salvation has always been by faith. In fact he argues more than once that "Abraham was considered righteous by faith" and not by works. "Considered righteous" being an important phrase--it's an accounting term. Basically God imputes his righteousness upon those of faith. What was the object of Abraham's faith? That's debatable. The context of the OT suggests that his faith was in God or the promises of God rather than specific knowledge of Christ--though Christ did claim to be the God of the OT.

Paul also makes the point in Romans that God's Law is written on the heart of every person. And ultimately every person is given the opportunity to respond to this innate knowledge of God. Some suppress this knowledge to the point that their knowledge is no more (atheists). But there are others who respond accordingly to this knowledge. What is not spelled out is what happens to those who respond positively.

There are two basic schools of thought. Some believe that these folks are saved by the blood of Christ without any specific knowledge of Christ. Others--myself included--believe that anyone who responds positively to the knowledge of God will be afforded the opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel. The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 is one possible example.
 

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Paul makes the point in the NT that salvation has always been by faith. In fact he argues more than once that "Abraham was considered righteous by faith" and not by works. "Considered righteous" being an important phrase--it's an accounting term. Basically God imputes his righteousness upon those of faith. What was the object of Abraham's faith? That's debatable. The context of the OT suggests that his faith was in God or the promises of God rather than specific knowledge of Christ--though Christ did claim to be the God of the OT.

Paul also makes the point in Romans that God's Law is written on the heart of every person. And ultimately every person is given the opportunity to respond to this innate knowledge of God. Some suppress this knowledge to the point that their knowledge is no more (atheists). But there are others who respond accordingly to this knowledge. What is not spelled out is what happens to those who respond positively.

There are two basic schools of thought. Some believe that these folks are saved by the blood of Christ without any specific knowledge of Christ. Others--myself included--believe that anyone who responds positively to the knowledge of God will be afforded the opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel. The Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8 is one possible example.
I just believe ... and I truly believe do unto others and love your God ... now I am Christian, but do not feel I have any business whatsoever faulting good folks who are not ... so long as they are good folks ... and if they are not and if I can help them, then all the better ... but I do not think it is good to force myself on anyone ... unless I just want to cause rebellion and hate ...
 

Poimen

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One of the coolest missionary stories I've ever heard was about a native tribe in northern Canada who, when first approached by white missionaries, asked the missionaries without prompting, "Where;s the book?" Where's the book?" They were expecting some foreign people to show up and tell them about the God of the book.

In recent times there have been documented cases of Muslims coming to faith in Christ in closed countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia), where Christians are not allowed to proclaim the gospel. How have these Muslims come to faith? Through dreams. Thousands of these Muslims have shared how Jesus appeared to them in dreams, and they subsequently came to faith.
 

Poimen

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I just believe ... and I truly believe do unto others and love your God ... now I am Christian, but do not feel I have any business whatsoever faulting good folks who are not ... so long as they are good folks ... and if they are not and if I can help them, then all the better ...
I understand but what defines someone as "good?"
 
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