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Misc All Things Religious

Made to the point of morallaw and started to cringe. That's one of the biggest and touchiest points and one I believe Christians have wrong.

On another forum I'm accused of being immoral just for being athiest. I'm accused of this by men who openly wish for protestors to be maimed and tortured. Men who put the price of life at the price of a spray paint can. These men who tell me I have no morals because I dont believe in their god.

Theres a song called "morality" by a guy named young inc. It starts off by saying "

"athiest dont have a problem being moral but if you would be out raping and killing if there was no god then by all means please keep believing"
Sorry, you need to continue the video. It will open your eyes. He quotes some of the most renowned atheists in history and digs into the science argument for existence. Furthermore, there is moral law, and if there is a moral law.... there must be a "moral law-giver".
 
With what we know for sure, believing in god is the biggest stretch ever lol
Oh yeah,.... what do we really know for sure????? What initiated the big-bang? Evolution doesn't explain how life started. Rule #1, every living thing that exists today owes it's existence to some other form of life. What's a bigger stretch, is to think that life just spontaneously happened. This is more of an impossibility than you or I can even calculate through statistics. Now, I say again What do you think you know for sure?
 
This guy pretty much hit every single thing that I questioned growing up and what led me to becoming full blown athiest. He does it in a very smooth calm articulated way that it's hard to argue against anything he says.



Sam Harris tends to say things counter his own arguments. But as for this video, I would need to watch the whole debate for context. But, his first contention is that "the whole point of Christianity is to safeguard the eternal well being of human souls." I would say that is quite off base. Christianity is a following of Jesus and his teachings, which the scope of, extends well beyond just the eternal afterlife.

Interestingly, his next point, about children dying is another version of the "problem of pain," or the question of suffering. However, he is using an objective moral standard to say that it is "bad" or "uncaring" if God allows it. If God does not exist, he has no standard (other than his opinion) to deem it bad. This entire portion of his argument is basically his view of "fairness." We have talked at length about this in previous pages, but I'll just say that our idea of fairness lacks to have any meaning if there is no standard for it, and is vastly limited by time and our own points of view. He then talks about being "good people." Again, what is the objective standard for good if there is no standard outside of people? What's good today was bad tomorrow and will be again. And being "good" doesn't get anyone to heaven in Christian doctrine, whereas it does in other religious doctrines; an important distinction.

Interesting that he refers to God as a "monster." What morality is he using to determine that? His? Stalin's? It's interesting many atheists are angry with the idea of God because children die in floods, or to disease, but support abortion.

He states William Craig can state nothing against Islam that isn't against his own moral belief system, but that would also be true of Sam's entire argument; one that he has no objective standard for.

While I'm not Catholic, his cracker quip is way off the mark as well. No one (I know) participates in communion believing it will turn into the body of Christ. Communion is done in remembrance of sacrifice. Almost everyone knows it is a symbol.

"I'm not the first person to notice, it is a strange loving God, to make salvation dependent on believing in Him with bad evidence." This is an error in Christian doctrine. Salvation is dependent on communion with God. Either one is in communion with Him or one is not. Hell is natural progression of being separated (out of communion with) from God. Faith, or belief, is certainly a large part of that communion, (which is why God doesn't "prove" Himself to us), but it's not the only part.

I have heard Frank Turek sum up his debates with Christopher Hitchens as, "there is no God and I hate him." Hitchens told him once, "Heaven would be Hell to me." I could sum up Sam's video as, "there is no God because He is unfair."
 
Funny how some can come in here and say no God next question. Yet if you go in the virus thread or political thread these same people despise you if you don’t agree with their beliefs. Such as how bad the virus is and wearing masks. How everything is Trumps fault. Yes some Christians are hypocrites and some Republicans are disgusting but the overall makeup of liberals and socialist is downright scary and full of hate, anger and unhappiness. Always blaming others. They are not realist. They are void of life and do not want others to be happy. It shows in their actions and words. The pity me party and the ME party. Take care of me.
 
Sorry, you need to continue the video. It will open your eyes. He quotes some of the most renowned atheists in history and digs into the science argument for existence. Furthermore, there is moral law, and if there is a moral law.... there must be a "moral law-giver".

I believe in the Almighty. However, why must he exist for there to be moral "laws"? Morals are based on common decency/logic/common sense from my perspective. Example: I didn't need someone else to tell me that killing or beating up someone when not for self-defense is clearly wrong. I knew that as a little kid from common sense. Do you think most humans are really that stupid?
 
I believe in the Almighty. However, why must he exist for there to be moral "laws"? Morals are based on common decency/logic/common sense from my perspective. Example: I didn't need someone else to tell me that killing or beating up someone when not for self-defense is clearly wrong. I knew that as a little kid from common sense. Do you think most humans are really that stupid?
It gets into the debate of whether or not there is "evil" in this world. What is evil? What does someone have to do to be evil? Was Stalin, Hitler and Judas evil? That's where moral law comes into play.... see the difference? Now, if you believe in evil, there has to be good in the world as well. Where did they come from? There had to be a "law giver"(someone to tell us what is right and wrong). Otherwise, there would be no remorse for wrong and no reward for good.
 
I believe in the Almighty. However, why must he exist for there to be moral "laws"? Morals are based on common decency/logic/common sense from my perspective. Example: I didn't need someone else to tell me that killing or beating up someone when not for self-defense is clearly wrong. I knew that as a little kid from common sense. Do you think most humans are really that stupid?


CADWedge shared some good thoughts on this. One problem is that what is "common decency/logic/common sense" to you may be opposite what is to someone else. So whose common sense and decency do we use? "I didn't need someone else to tell me that killing or beating up someone when not for self-defense is clearly wrong." I would agree but many would not. We have plenty of people in our country who do not seem to hold that moral, and certainly many through time have not. Science tells us we are just animals. Animals do that kind of stuff all the time, in addition to stealing, forcing themselves sexually, etc. Many people and cultures (through time) have felt things like slavery, rape, abortion, were perfectly fine and moral. So again, whose idea of moral do we use? What time period of moral do we use? Whose common decency do we use? There has to be standard outside of us or it's all just opinion. It's not about humans being stupid its about having an objective moral law. We can't even get a few people on a forum to agree on things so no objective standard outside of ourselves means we're just arguing opinions.
 
It gets into the debate of whether or not there is "evil" in this world. What is evil? What does someone have to do to be evil? Was Stalin, Hitler and Judas evil? That's where moral law comes into play.... see the difference? Now, if you believe in evil, there has to be good in the world as well. Where did they come from? There had to be a "law giver"(someone to tell us what is right and wrong). Otherwise, there would be no remorse for wrong and no reward for good.

Humans are fully capable of developing a system of good, bad, evil. I'd argue that human nature can be evil. Chimpanzees also occasionally go on murder parties. We as humans have developed a code based on what we as a society have now sorted out as right and wrong over the millennium.
 
Oh yeah,.... what do we really know for sure????? What initiated the big-bang? Evolution doesn't explain how life started. Rule #1, every living thing that exists today owes it's existence to some other form of life. What's a bigger stretch, is to think that life just spontaneously happened. This is more of an impossibility than you or I can even calculate through statistics. Now, I say again What do you think you know for sure?

I disagree there were literally millions/billions of years of trial and error before life began to evolve to single cell much less beyond a single cell....it didn't spontaneously happen. this notion that life just began out of nothing is a false narrative pushed by Christians.....there were a incalculable number of cells dividing and I would argue that over millions and even billions of years the chances that out of those untold number of splits etc would eventually evolve into higher life...

The cool thing about science is its ok to say we dont know.....so we dont know what initiated the big bang or if the big bang even happened like is theorized, I guarantee that as man progresses new understanding changes the current theories quite a bit. However not knowing does not mean that suddenly believing a magic sky daddy created everything makes any more sense......how can you on one hand have disbelief that the universe just popped into existence or that however improbable the chance may seem that life actually did evolved from the primordial soup, but then turn around and literally believe that some all powerful god that has always somehow existed created it. To me that sounds way more improbable.....


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I disagree there were literally millions/billions of years of trial and error before life began to evolve to single cell much less beyond a single cell....it didn't spontaneously happen. this notion that life just began out of nothing is a false narrative pushed by Christians.....there were a incalculable number of cells dividing and I would argue that over millions and even billions of years the chances that out of those untold number of splits etc would eventually evolve into higher life...

The cool thing about science is its ok to say we dont know.....so we dont know what initiated the big bang or if the big bang even happened like is theorized, I guarantee that as man progresses new understanding changes the current theories quite a bit. However not knowing does not mean that suddenly believing a magic sky daddy created everything makes any more sense......how can you on one hand have disbelief that the universe just popped into existence or that however improbable the chance may seem that life actually did evolved from the primordial soup, but then turn around and literally believe that some all powerful god that has always somehow existed created it. To me that sounds way more improbable.....


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Atheism is pretty sweet in that it tries to stand above faith by grounding itself in the "realities" of science and hard evidence", rather than the "fantasies of some man-made religious construct". But the really cool thing is that it requires at least as much faith as Christianity and other religions. The faith is placed in a different object; that's all. Plus, you get to live free from any moral boundaries, absolving you from any consequences of anything you ever do, as long as you don't get caught.
 
Atheism is pretty sweet in that it tries to stand above faith by grounding itself in the "realities" of science and hard evidence", rather than the "fantasies of some man-made religious construct". But the really cool thing is that it requires at least as much faith as Christianity and other religions. The faith is placed in a different object; that's all. Plus, you get to live free from any moral boundaries, absolving you from any consequences of anything you ever do, as long as you don't get caught.

Come on now this if frankly BS......so the reason your not out there murdering and stealing and raping is because your scared you gonna go to hell? I do not fear going to hell or being judged by a god and I dont do those things.....and there are consequences to doing those things its called prison.

The way I see it atheism requires no faith, its like this, atheism is the default, its how we are born we are without religion until we are taught what to believe.....the burden of proof is on the believer and so far none of the proof gives me enough faith in any of the religions to move off the default there is no god ( and for good reason since well there is no god )....
 
Come on now this if frankly BS......so the reason your not out there murdering and stealing and raping is because your scared you gonna go to hell? I do not fear going to hell or being judged by a god and I dont do those things.....and there are consequences to doing those things its called prison.

The way I see it atheism requires no faith, its like this, atheism is the default, its how we are born we are without religion until we are taught what to believe.....the burden of proof is on the believer and so far none of the proof gives me enough faith in any of the religions to move off the default there is no god ( and for good reason since well there is no god )....

How did the very first man/woman who evolved become religious then if there was no one to teach them what to believe?
 
How did the very first man/woman who evolved become religious then if there was no one to teach them what to believe?

Who says they were religious, religion evolved like everything else, early man was not religious and as religion evolved no one was a christian.....I guess though my point is that people dont default to believe in the christian god or any other god......you are not born knowing who jesus/buddha/muhammad etc is.....the concept of religion is something that grew and evolved with early man....


"Such mechanisms may include the ability to infer the presence of organisms that might do harm (agent detection), the ability to come up with causal narratives for natural events (etiology), and the ability to recognize that other people have minds of their own with their own beliefs, desires and intentions (theory of mind). These three adaptations (among others) allow human beings to imagine purposeful agents behind many observations that could not readily be explained otherwise, e.g. thunder, lightning, movement of planets, complexity of life.[32] The emergence of collective religious belief identified the agents as deities that standardized the explanation.[33] "
 
Who says they were religious, religion evolved like everything else, early man was not religious and as religion evolved no one was a christian.....I guess though my point is that people dont default to believe in the christian god or any other god......you are not born knowing who jesus/buddha/muhammad etc is.....the concept of religion is something that grew and evolved with early man....


"Such mechanisms may include the ability to infer the presence of organisms that might do harm (agent detection), the ability to come up with causal narratives for natural events (etiology), and the ability to recognize that other people have minds of their own with their own beliefs, desires and intentions (theory of mind). These three adaptations (among others) allow human beings to imagine purposeful agents behind many observations that could not readily be explained otherwise, e.g. thunder, lightning, movement of planets, complexity of life.[32] The emergence of collective religious belief identified the agents as deities that standardized the explanation.[33] "

My point is that the statement "we are born we are without religion until we are taught what to believe" is not entirely accurate because the first man/woman had no one to teach them religion or what to believe under an evolutionary worldview. Certainly you could make that argument today since there are numerous religions in the world but at some point when religion originated it would have been completely new to that person and everyone else, not something they were taught/passed down or born into.
 
Come on now this if frankly BS......so the reason your not out there murdering and stealing and raping is because your scared you gonna go to hell? I do not fear going to hell or being judged by a god and I dont do those things.....and there are consequences to doing those things its called prison.

The way I see it atheism requires no faith, its like this, atheism is the default, its how we are born we are without religion until we are taught what to believe.....the burden of proof is on the believer and so far none of the proof gives me enough faith in any of the religions to move off the default there is no god ( and for good reason since well there is no god )....
I'm not saying you are a bad person and that you are going to choose to murder and steal and so forth. But you'd certainly have no reason not to do those things if you wanted to...as long as you could avoid getting caught. If we don't have any sort of universal framework that guides us, then we rely on the collective/prevailing ideology of the day to provide that guidance. Just because more people think a certain way doesn't mean, as an atheist, you should be held to subscribe to that notion. Who is anyone, who has no basis in higher authority, to tell you how to live or act, just because they think the way they think is better? The very example of same sex marriage bears that out. Many atheists are advocates of that in the face of a majority of opposition. Abortion is the same way. Atheism has many fundamental contradictions and leaps of faith.
 
I disagree there were literally millions/billions of years of trial and error before life began to evolve to single cell much less beyond a single cell....it didn't spontaneously happen. this notion that life just began out of nothing is a false narrative pushed by Christians.....there were a incalculable number of cells dividing and I would argue that over millions and even billions of years the chances that out of those untold number of splits etc would eventually evolve into higher life...

The cool thing about science is its ok to say we dont know.....so we dont know what initiated the big bang or if the big bang even happened like is theorized, I guarantee that as man progresses new understanding changes the current theories quite a bit. However not knowing does not mean that suddenly believing a magic sky daddy created everything makes any more sense......how can you on one hand have disbelief that the universe just popped into existence or that however improbable the chance may seem that life actually did evolved from the primordial soup, but then turn around and literally believe that some all powerful god that has always somehow existed created it. To me that sounds way more improbable.....


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I was not talking about evolution...... I said the beginning of life. Where did the cells come from, that supposedly divided? Can't believe you are entertaining the theory that atoms just randomly came together and formed a living cell. As much as we know about the laws of nature, you do realize how absurdly impossible that is, right? However, if you believe that garbage, you have more faith than most Christians do. The Bible tells us a more believable account of what really happened.
 
I was not talking about evolution...... I said the beginning of life. Where did the cells come from, that supposedly divided? Can't believe you are entertaining the theory that atoms just randomly came together and formed a living cell. As much as we know about the laws of nature, you do realize how absurdly impossible that is, right? However, if you believe that garbage, you have more faith than most Christians do. The Bible tells us a more believable account of what really happened.

The irony here is astounding......its "absurdly impossible for cells to evolve over millions and billions of years" even though that is what actually happened yet I am a idiot to believe that, but its totally reasonable to believe it all happened because of magic.....
 
The irony here is astounding......its "absurdly impossible for cells to evolve over millions and billions of years" even though that is what actually happened yet I am a idiot to believe that, but its totally reasonable to believe it all happened because of magic.....
Oh it most definitely was not magic. It was done by a being that has trillions of times more brainpower than the cumulative total of every human ever born, including you
 
Come on now this if frankly BS......so the reason your not out there murdering and stealing and raping is because your scared you gonna go to hell? I do not fear going to hell or being judged by a god and I dont do those things.....and there are consequences to doing those things its called prison.

The way I see it atheism requires no faith, its like this, atheism is the default, its how we are born we are without religion until we are taught what to believe.....the burden of proof is on the believer and so far none of the proof gives me enough faith in any of the religions to move off the default there is no god ( and for good reason since well there is no god )....
A question I wonder about atheists. Do you believe in adultery or polygamy? I am asking to learn because adultery comes from the 10 commandments as do many other rules or laws whatever we shall call them. I often wonder without the 10 commandments where would be. Would murder be something acceptable and stealing. Like if no God then why is adultery wrong and murder? Why have rules if really no God. Everyone can believe what they believe is right. Such as someone might believe murder or stealing is right while another feels it’s wrong. Taking the 10 commandments out of the equation who says what is right and wrong.
 
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