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Avalanche said:
We've got, again, big thanks to Obama for spending nearly the amount of the past 10 presidents combined. You are right in the fact that printing currency beyond your ability to back (gold, etc) will eventually be monopoly money. That's why I think its so pivotal that Trump has tried to bring the coal/petroleum/natural gas production up. We will have to have independence and exportation beyond importation to negate some of that national debt we have. Ideally, we'd have a good economy, money going into the treasury beyond what we spend. We WILL have to get there, as you have said, we are living on borrowed time. I just don't see how advocating for massive spending is going to work. It didn't with Obama, as you have to toe the line between taxing, but not to the extent it slows commerce and growth (as it did with Obama).
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Funny how Clinton balanced the budget and had a projected surplus for W to work with and the war and tax cuts erased that. The economy collapse happened under w not Obama
 
Heelyes said:
I don't see how a 12k peak before he was in office has anything to do with it. It was 6k or so at it's worst when he was in office and 20k when he left. That is a much larger increase than Trump's greatest economy. More importantly the deficit was going down with the rising market and now we are near the levels Obama had when the economy was near depression.
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I might've mislooked at the graph, and when Obama entered it was near that, but I will still say Obama's rate of growth doesn't match up to Trump's, as you're still comparing 8 years to 3.
Heelyes said:
So Obama gets no credit for helping prevent a total collapse of the economy that W and crew created with tax cuts and war? When has anyone went to war and cut taxes? No socialist policy of Obama's caused the bubble to pop. Unemployment was nowhere close to 10 when he left and the deficit from his socialist policy was less than Trump's free market, greatest economy ever. Wait until this bubble pops it will be Obama's fault
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What I was taught in high school history is that throwing money at the economy when it's in despair isn't the right thing to do, as it only shortens the time between economic cycles and extends their length. I'm not sure if this is the true case, but it might have some ground. I know 2008 could've been prevented with better rules on mortgages, but that wasn't the case. The next collapse won't be Obama's fault. It would be the fault of congress AND the president for not passing policies that cool the economy off in time.

Don't think I'm not saying Obama didn't do squat either. He did what he could to stop us from a depression as I said any president after FDR would do. He isn't special, and neither is Trump for growing it. They're a product of their political and fiscal alignments. A liberal point of view will help during a bad economy which is why Obama was effective, and Trump being a conservative is effective during an economy build. That's economics too.
 
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When you hit a bottom you normally rise quickly. It took Obama far too long to recover the economy than it should have and IMO it was a fake economy. The growth we are in now is incredible. At some point in the next few years the market will correct itself and that's just what it will be, a correction. I would much rather have a pro business president (Trump) in charge of managing that potential correction than any of these socialists clowns that will run against him next year
 
Sandbar said:
When you hit a bottom you normally rise quickly. It took Obama far too long to recover the economy than it should have and IMO it was a fake economy. The growth we are in now is incredible. At some point in the next few years the market will correct itself and that's just what it will be, a correction. I would much rather have a pro business president (Trump) in charge of managing that potential correction than any of these socialists clowns that will run against him next year
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He isn't in charge of anything. What can he do when obstructionist are in his way just like they were with Obama.
 
Bush 1 and Clinton raised taxes and the economy did great. Clinton worked with Republicans and the government was actually working to a certain extent. Democrats worked with W but Republicans never gave Obama a chance. I'm still lost on the whole socialist label for Obama. Because of Obamacare? The Republicans could have replaced it but they didn't. I guess Trump's a socialist
 
Heelyes said:
Bush 1 and Clinton raised taxes and the economy did great. Clinton worked with Republicans and the government was actually working to a certain extent. Democrats worked with W but Republicans never gave Obama a chance. I'm still lost on the whole socialist label for Obama. Because of Obamacare? The Republicans could have replaced it but they didn't. I guess Trump's a socialist
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I was just asking you a question about Obama being a socialist because you referred in the above messages something talking about socialist Obama policies
 
Would Jesus be a socialist or a conservative? Free healthcare for everyone seems more like Jesus than tax cuts for corporations and more money to the military than the next five biggest countries combined. IDK maybe I misunderstood his teachings
 
ForsythSnow said:
I might've mislooked at the graph, and when Obama entered it was near that, but I will still say Obama's rate of growth doesn't match up to Trump's, as you're still comparing 8 years to 3.

What I was taught in high school history is that throwing money at the economy when it's in despair isn't the right thing to do, as it only shortens the time between economic cycles and extends their length. I'm not sure if this is the true case, but it might have some ground. I know 2008 could've been prevented with better rules on mortgages, but that wasn't the case. The next collapse won't be Obama's fault. It would be the fault of congress AND the president for not passing policies that cool the economy off in time.

Don't think I'm not saying Obama didn't do squat either. He did what he could to stop us from a depression as I said any president after FDR would do. He isn't special, and neither is Trump for growing it. They're a product of their political and fiscal alignments. A liberal point of view will help during a bad economy which is why Obama was effective, and Trump being a conservative is effective during an economy build. That's economics too.
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How is a trillion dollar deficit in the greatest economy ever conservative?
 
Heelyes said:
Would Jesus be a socialist or a conservative? Free healthcare for everyone seems more like Jesus than tax cuts for corporations and more money to the military than the next five biggest countries combined. IDK maybe I misunderstood his teachings
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I dont think Jesus would be a socialist or conservative. Anyone without bias could make a case for either one. That said I think Christ would find much much more wrong with our society than choosing either one of these options.Because both ways of thinking have massive flaws.
 
Heelyes said:
Would Jesus be a socialist or a conservative? Free healthcare for everyone seems more like Jesus than tax cuts for corporations and more money to the military than the next five biggest countries combined. IDK maybe I misunderstood his teachings
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He would be conservative, the liberals dont want him. He also went against the liberal establishment.
 
Heelyes said:
I don't care what you call him, he was a much more calm, respectable, caring, and likeable person than this loser we have now. Im not even a Obama supporter, voted for McCain.
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"Respectable, Caring and likeable"?
 
metwannabe said:
I can promise you, Jesus would not support the murder of unborn children.

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He also wouldn't support locking kids in cages. Conservative only care about unborn children, once they are born they are on their own. Cut funding to poor kids and cut taxes on rich people seems like a good idea? The biggest opponents of a woman's right to abortion in our government and society have no problem if their lover or sister or daughter have one. I don't think Jesus would support your right to bear arms and I know he wouldn't support Trump.
 
accu35 said:
"Respectable, Caring and likeable"?
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I will only give Obama some credit to that. Not a lot. Likeable is a stretch since a lot didn't like him, but still more liked him than Trump, and the right didn't hate Obama as much as the left hates trump. I think Trump has some care, but his ego blots it out and masks any that makes it though. Respectable I'll at least say Obama has more advantage to, since he was a lot calmer and less likely to say the dumb stuff Trump does.
 
Heelyes said:
He also wouldn't support locking kids in cages. Conservative only care about unborn children, once they are born they are on their own. Cut funding to poor kids and cut taxes on rich people seems like a good idea? The biggest opponents of a woman's right to abortion in our government and society have no problem if their lover or sister or daughter have one. I don't think Jesus would support your right to bear arms and I know he wouldn't support Trump.
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I may be wrong, but I’m gonna say the majority of foster and adopted parents in the US are conservative so I think saying conservatives only care about the unborn is rather wrong.

I am also curious how you think Jesus would be against the right to bear arms?
 
Heelyes said:
He also wouldn't support locking kids in cages. Conservative only care about unborn children, once they are born they are on their own. Cut funding to poor kids and cut taxes on rich people seems like a good idea? The biggest opponents of a woman's right to abortion in our government and society have no problem if their lover or sister or daughter have one. I don't think Jesus would support your right to bear arms and I know he wouldn't support Trump.
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There are no kids in cages and these so called cages as you and msm like to refer to them were also utilized by the Obama administration, a fact that seems to get lost frequently. Cut funding to poor kids.... what on earth are you talking about? To think an individual only supports unborn children but then stops caring for them is ludicrous.

Weaponry was used all throughout the Bible, battles, wars, etc, it was then and always will be a necessary tool, even the disciples carried swords for protection. And as I'm sure you or someone one else will say, "Jesus told them to put the sword away and healed the Roman soldiers ear", He sure did because Jesus knew the time was at hand and willfully according to his Father's will, gave himself up to die for all of our sins.

But hey at least you've made your political stance very clear: you're a socialist, you think gov't should run our lives, increase our taxes, take my guns, support the killing of unborn children and you think I'm a bigot for supporting traditional marriage between a man and a woman as God intended it. This is America, you have a right to that opinion I just happen to respectfully disagree with every part of it.
 
metwannabe said:
There are no kids in cages and these so called cages as you and msm like to refer to them were also utilized by the Obama administration, a fact that seems to get lost frequently. Cut funding to poor kids.... what on earth are you talking about? To think an individual only supports unborn children but then stops caring for them is ludicrous.

Weaponry was used all throughout the Bible, battles, wars, etc, it was then and always will be a necessary tool, even the disciples carried swords for protection. And as I'm sure you or someone one else will say, "Jesus told them to put the sword away and healed the Roman soldiers ear", He sure did because Jesus knew the time was at hand and willfully according to his Father's will, gave himself up to die for all of our sins.

But hey at least you've made your political stance very clear: you're a socialist, you think gov't should run our lives, increase our taxes, take my guns, support the killing of unborn children and you think I'm a bigot for supporting traditional marriage between a man and a woman as God intended it. This is America, you have a right to that opinion I just happen to respectfully disagree with every part of it.
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I'm not a socialist or a Obama supporter. I enjoy a good debate and am not afraid speak up.
 
metwannabe said:
There are no kids in cages and these so called cages as you and msm like to refer to them were also utilized by the Obama administration, a fact that seems to get lost frequently. Cut funding to poor kids.... what on earth are you talking about? To think an individual only supports unborn children but then stops caring for them is ludicrous.

Weaponry was used all throughout the Bible, battles, wars, etc, it was then and always will be a necessary tool, even the disciples carried swords for protection. And as I'm sure you or someone one else will say, "Jesus told them to put the sword away and healed the Roman soldiers ear", He sure did because Jesus knew the time was at hand and willfully according to his Father's will, gave himself up to die for all of our sins.

But hey at least you've made your political stance very clear: you're a socialist, you think gov't should run our lives, increase our taxes, take my guns, support the killing of unborn children and you think I'm a bigot for supporting traditional marriage between a man and a woman as God intended it. This is America, you have a right to that opinion I just happen to respectfully disagree with every part of it.
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Didn't Trump want to cut SNAP funding? That is there to feed hungry kids.
 
Heelyes said:
Didn't Trump want to cut SNAP funding? That is there to feed hungry kids.
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Not really, just wanted to change some of the guidelines to include work requirements for food stamp/welfare recipients (SNAP recipients). Some states are already doing this, I think Georgia may be one of them. Trying to encourage, teach, train individuals to become self reliant isn't cutting funding.

edit: There could be a whole other lengthy discussion on welfare reform
 
metwannabe said:
Not really, just wanted to change some of the guidelines to include work requirements for food stamp/welfare recipients (SNAP recipients). Some states are already doing this, I think Georgia may be one of them. Trying to encourage, teach, train individuals to become self reliant isn't cutting funding.

edit: There could be a whole other lengthy discussion on welfare reform
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It's ironic that a majority of welfare is given to red States and a majority of taxes come from blue states.
 
Heelyes said:
It's ironic that a majority of welfare is given to red States and a majority of taxes come from blue states.
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California spends more than any other state on welfare and New York actually is in the top spot for most spent per capita. So not sure what you're referencing here?

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metwannabe said:
California spends more than any other state on welfare and New York actually is in the top spot for most spent per capita. So not sure what you're referencing here?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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California spends slightly more than they contribute but new York pays more than they received. The ten states that pay more than they received are all blue except South Dakota.
 
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the overall health of the economy and how that has progressed or regressed under each regime and how much each president was responsible for it. The economy operates cyclically. There is a business cycle. Policies put in place long ago gave rise to the financial crisis in 2008. It was not GWB's doing. The housing bust caused a catastrophic series of events to happen that could only be stopped by a global central bank effort, the likes of which the world had never previously seen. "Emergency monetary policy" was enacted, interest rates were taken to zero, and the market was flooded with liquidity. This saved the banking system and the economy from collapsing.

But notice, we have never been able to escape from "emergency monetary policy". Notice that interest rates have not been allowed to rise appreciably. Notice that more people are working more jobs to maintain a previous standard of living. Notice that saving is neither encouraged nor rewarded. Notice that businesses have engaged in buying back shares at the expense of investing in growth or investing in their employees. Notice that the GDP has not been able to achieve break-away velocity. Notice the proliferation of zombie companies. Notice the explosion of debt since Clinton and its parabolic rise over the last decade. Notice that there's not even a hint of trying to balance the budget or slow the growth of debt.

The entire sustaining factor for the economic resurgence since the crisis has been the massive, mind-boggling growth of debt, and it is unsustainable. It has had little to do with pro-economic policies. Sure, Bush, Obama, and Trump may espouse or have espoused some good ideas, and maybe they even undertook a few token initiatives. But all of them have injured the overall health of the system and have worked to ensure that it will eventually implode under its own weight of debt.

I'm all for trying to bring manufacturing back, but there are too many reasons why it's beneficial for companies to largely manufacture overseas. I'm all for looking at tax policy. But without cash/debt management, it's useless. It's nothing more than a band-aid.

The bottom line is the debt and our tax and spend mentality. Until ANYONE addresses this central issue, then the rest is largely irrelevant. It is like pushing a boulder uphill. Maybe you can slow its descent, but only a little. We're hurling headlong into another crisis. The Fed can print, the government can spend, and businesses can buy their shares back, using cheap money and make their balance sheets look good. But the cracks are widening, and nobody is doing or has done a single thing to fix it. Not Bush, not Obama, and not Trump. They get no credit in my book for very much of anything in the realm of real economic growth and health. Anything that we have seen in that arena was the result of a cyclical business cycle, fueled by cheap money and ongoing "emergency monetary policy", from which we will never be able to escape.
 
Rain Cold said:
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the overall health of the economy and how that has progressed or regressed under each regime and how much each president was responsible for it. The economy operates cyclically. There is a business cycle. Policies put in place long ago gave rise to the financial crisis in 2008. It was not GWB's doing. The housing bust caused a catastrophic series of events to happen that could only be stopped by a global central bank effort, the likes of which the world had never previously seen. "Emergency monetary policy" was enacted, interest rates were taken to zero, and the market was flooded with liquidity. This saved the banking system and the economy from collapsing.

But notice, we have never been able to escape from "emergency monetary policy". Notice that interest rates have not been allowed to rise appreciably. Notice that more people are working more jobs to maintain a previous standard of living. Notice that saving is neither encouraged nor rewarded. Notice that businesses have engaged in buying back shares at the expense of investing in growth or investing in their employees. Notice that the GDP has not been able to achieve break-away velocity. Notice the proliferation of zombie companies. Notice the explosion of debt since Clinton and its parabolic rise over the last decade. Notice that there's not even a hint of trying to balance the budget or slow the growth of debt.

The entire sustaining factor for the economic resurgence since the crisis has been the massive, mind-boggling growth of debt, and it is unsustainable. It has had little to do with pro-economic policies. Sure, Bush, Obama, and Trump may espouse or have espoused some good ideas, and maybe they even undertook a few token initiatives. But all of them have injured the overall health of the system and have worked to ensure that it will eventually implode under its own weight of debt.

I'm all for trying to bring manufacturing back, but there are too many reasons why it's beneficial for companies to largely manufacture overseas. I'm all for looking at tax policy. But without cash/debt management, it's useless. It's nothing more than a band-aid.

The bottom line is the debt and our tax and spend mentality. Until ANYONE addresses this central issue, then the rest is largely irrelevant. It is like pushing a boulder uphill. Maybe you can slow its descent, but only a little. We're hurling headlong into another crisis. The Fed can print, the government can spend, and businesses can buy their shares back, using cheap money and make their balance sheets look good. But the cracks are widening, and nobody is doing or has done a single thing to fix it. Not Bush, not Obama, and not Trump. They get no credit in my book for very much of anything in the realm of real economic growth and health. Anything that we have seen in that arena was the result of a cyclical business cycle, fueled by cheap money and ongoing "emergency monetary policy", from which we will never be able to escape.
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What do you do for a living? You seem to have a better understanding of the economy than most people in charge of it. I would probably vote for you if you ran for president.
 
Heelyes said:
What do you do for a living? You seem to have a better understanding of the economy than most people in charge of it. I would probably vote for you if you ran for president.
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Lol thanks. I'll probably stay as far away from politics as I can! I do various tech things in the financial services space: support, sales, project management, onboarding, etc.
 
Rain Cold said:
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the overall health of the economy and how that has progressed or regressed under each regime and how much each president was responsible for it. The economy operates cyclically. There is a business cycle. Policies put in place long ago gave rise to the financial crisis in 2008. It was not GWB's doing. The housing bust caused a catastrophic series of events to happen that could only be stopped by a global central bank effort, the likes of which the world had never previously seen. "Emergency monetary policy" was enacted, interest rates were taken to zero, and the market was flooded with liquidity. This saved the banking system and the economy from collapsing.

But notice, we have never been able to escape from "emergency monetary policy". Notice that interest rates have not been allowed to rise appreciably. Notice that more people are working more jobs to maintain a previous standard of living. Notice that saving is neither encouraged nor rewarded. Notice that businesses have engaged in buying back shares at the expense of investing in growth or investing in their employees. Notice that the GDP has not been able to achieve break-away velocity. Notice the proliferation of zombie companies. Notice the explosion of debt since Clinton and its parabolic rise over the last decade. Notice that there's not even a hint of trying to balance the budget or slow the growth of debt.

The entire sustaining factor for the economic resurgence since the crisis has been the massive, mind-boggling growth of debt, and it is unsustainable. It has had little to do with pro-economic policies. Sure, Bush, Obama, and Trump may espouse or have espoused some good ideas, and maybe they even undertook a few token initiatives. But all of them have injured the overall health of the system and have worked to ensure that it will eventually implode under its own weight of debt.

I'm all for trying to bring manufacturing back, but there are too many reasons why it's beneficial for companies to largely manufacture overseas. I'm all for looking at tax policy. But without cash/debt management, it's useless. It's nothing more than a band-aid.

The bottom line is the debt and our tax and spend mentality. Until ANYONE addresses this central issue, then the rest is largely irrelevant. It is like pushing a boulder uphill. Maybe you can slow its descent, but only a little. We're hurling headlong into another crisis. The Fed can print, the government can spend, and businesses can buy their shares back, using cheap money and make their balance sheets look good. But the cracks are widening, and nobody is doing or has done a single thing to fix it. Not Bush, not Obama, and not Trump. They get no credit in my book for very much of anything in the realm of real economic growth and health. Anything that we have seen in that arena was the result of a cyclical business cycle, fueled by cheap money and ongoing "emergency monetary policy", from which we will never be able to escape.
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Great post. That's what I've been taught in high school and college in terms of economic cycles. The fact we are unable to pull out of emergency mode 10 years from the last collapse is major. If we don't get some action in the next 5 years we will be in trouble again like in 2008 or worse. All this political attention is being thrown at climate change and social issues, and they all say spend spend spend! But they never think about the entire global economy as a whole and minimizing the inevitable fall every 15 to 25 years. They should be focusing on lightening the impact and not propelling us toward the ground faster. I'm not saying social issues shouldn't beaddressed, but when that's what their primary focus is on, then it'll sneak up and bite when they least expect it.
 
ForsythSnow said:
Great post. That's what I've been taught in high school and college in terms of economic cycles. The fact we are unable to pull out of emergency mode 10 years from the last collapse is major. If we don't get some action in the next 5 years we will be in trouble again like in 2008 or worse. All this political attention is being thrown at climate change and social issues, and they all say spend spend spend! But they never think about the entire global economy as a whole and minimizing the inevitable fall every 15 to 25 years. They should be focusing on lightening the impact and not propelling us toward the ground faster. I'm not saying social issues shouldn't beaddressed, but when that's what their primary focus is on, then it'll sneak up and bite when they least expect it.
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Which is why we have to cut taxes to promote commerce and growth, and reduce spending to increase the treasury. Both of which the Dems haven't been willing to do.
 
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