pcbjr
Member
Might I humbly suggest, for point of clarity, a comma?
So yeah impeachable offenses occurred, just not by this administration.
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So yeah impeachable offenses occurred, just not by this administration.
Downeastnc
Member
I wouldn't believe to much coming out of Shokin the guy is a Russian stooge and was forced out because he was corruption incarnate and doing exactly what he was trying to stop....
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukr...ldings-joe-bidens-son-hunter-explained-2019-9
- So, it's true that Biden was among those who pushed for Shokin to be fired as Ukraine's top prosecutor, but by the time this happened the probe into Burisma was dormant, according to Bloomberg.
- According to the Times, Ukrainian and American officials have also debated whether Shokin was using the threat of prosecution against Burisma in order to solicit a bribe.
- Daria Kaleniuk, co-founder of the Ukrainian Anti-Corruption Action Center told The Washington Post, "Shokin was not investigating. He didn't want to investigate Burisma. Shokin was fired not because he wanted to do that investigation, but quite to the contrary, because he failed that investigation."
Trump admits he asked the Ukrainians to go after the Biden's that is a impeachable offense full stop.......it may even be illegal. He has admitted to it and there is a lot more than just that one call, Rudy has been over there numerous times pushing this and now its coming out that others have as well.
Edit to add it does not look good on Trump that he praises this corrupt guy on the call transcript either.....
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Avalanche
Member
He made the transcript public. He didnt say "go after" Biden. Had he said that Adam Schiff wouldnt have had to lie and use made up words.
The honorable RainCold. I'm gonna respond to you, since you answered my question.
I disagree that there's nothing there. I think asking Ukraine to investigate his likely opponent in his reelection campaign while implying we would withhold aid is a form of extortion, and warrants at the very least, impeachment proceedings. I'm not saying we should 100% remove him yet, because I'd like to see what else comes out before deciding. But I don't think it looks good.
As for the democrats, I hope your wrong. But there's part of me that thinks even if something comes out that makes the President's removal a slam dunk, they would still find a way to screw it up.
Ya'll know this is all McCain's fault, right? If he hadn't nominated Palin back in the day, then Obama may not have been elected in 08. That would have been an interesting timeline no doubt.
I just realized your location says Chapel Hill. You live within walking distance of the biggest bastion of pink commy liberals in the state. Why did you do this to yourself? No wonder you came out with guns blazing on our Commander in Chief.
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Bernie Sanders had to have emergency surgery (on Tuesday I believe) to have two stents put into a coronary artery after having complained of chest discomfort. He’s resting comfortably (rest is important at this stage) and hopefully he’ll have a full recovery. It is a rather common procedure.
Brent
Member
I wish him all the best honestly but he'll be 80 soon how old is too old
Biden isnt very far behind either
If he had any shot, and he didn't, this is the nail in the coffin, so to speak. I wish him well and hope he gets better soon.
Avalanche
Member
LOL I know right. My first experience was when the Chick-Fil-A was located on Franklin St in Chapel Hill. I was going to grab myself a sandwich, and when I pulled in there were 50 or so people blocking the line holding animal rights signs. I knew then I'd better get a salad.
It could easily be said to not believe too much coming out of an anonymous deep state whistle blower with 2nd and 3rd hand information. Also Shokin's comments seem to at least corroborate Biden's own actual admission that he threatened to withhold a billion US dollars from Ukraine if he wasn't fired. "Well son of a B...., he was fired" -Joe Biden
Just because the probe into Burisma might have been dormant doesn't absolve Biden of any wrong doing, he still wanted them to back off of any investigation into his son's involvement. The Obama administration always has and apparently always will get a free pass.
As @Avalanche stated Trump did not say "go after Biden", did he mention his name yes but to look into corruption. I'd think we would want our leaders to look into corruption that involved American citizens with foreign identities. I mean we just wasted 2 years of looking into possible collusion but they seems ok to do because it's Trump. Mind you I'm no big Trump fan, I've said this in previous post but I also don't let my personal feelings toward one candidate or another cloud my observations.
What Trump really wants them to look into is the whole corruption scandal surrounding the 2016 election and as it relates to those in the DNC. This whole impeachment process has tons to do with the fact that somebody was getting very warm/close to uncovering the real corruption that occurred (you remember, bought and paid for fake dossier that started this whole collusion mess in the first place) and names coming out. I mean why else did this whistleblower meet with Schiff aides priory to actually filing the complaint?
I'm assuming the C Hill snowflakes don't know where you live? Lol God bless you!
Downeastnc
Member
There is no corruption scandal surrounding the DNC/Ukriane its all smoke and mirror 4chan conspiracy crap, the Ukraine has said that the corruption investigation into Barisma was for a period of time before Biden Jr was even with the company and that Biden Jr has never been under investigation. The entire Crowdstrike/DNC angle has been debunked by the entire US intelligence community, the Mueller investigation etc...Trump is just trying to get the Ukraine to say this stuff happened to discredit the Mueller report and the Russian collusion. The reason the WB went to Congress was he originally gave his concerns and report to the CIA legal consul and he did so outside of the WB procedures, so it was just him saying hey I have this info and I think someone needs to see it.....the CIA consul then went to the WH deputy consul with it ( I mean why go to the WH with a complaint against Trump), meaning they knew of it before anyone else......after a few weeks the WB felt the report was being buried ( cause it was) and contacted Congress to see how best to proceed and was directed to retain legal consul and file a WB complaint which he did.
This is how the Rudy angle is playing out......this is what is actually happening....this is a attempt by Trump and Rudy to shift the election interference falsely to the Ukrainians to down play the Russian collusion on 2016...
- Giuliani has been communicating with Manafort via a lawyer to coordinate the communications and plan regarding Ukraine. That’s...insane.
- Giuliani put together a packet of disinformation that was given to the state dept for the purpose of smearing people, like the Biden’s. The packet has been described as “propaganda and debunked conspiracy theories”.
- The packet was photoshopped to appear to be from the White House. Giuliani admitted he made it. So Trumps personal lawyer is forging documents that contain 4chan level nonsense to appear to be official White House docs and it was aimed at smearing The Biden’s and others.
- Pompeo directed his staff not to answer any questions about this to congress. Pompeo’s lawyer very intelligently did not follow that direction and confirmed details about the packet.
- So when Schiff said “Trump asked the Ukrainian President to make up dirt about Biden” he was technically wrong. Trump and co made up the dirt and gave it to him, they just asked him to say it was real.
Obviously you believe there was collusion between Trump and the Russians to effect the 2016 Election and I'm guessing you think the dossier is legit? You know the bought and paid for dossier, with dots that lead back to the Clinton's, is the one thing that has been debunked and the use of said fake dossier to get FISA warrants is corrupt if not outright illegal. It's going to be very difficult to debate or even think about changing one's mind about anything Trump related if they still believe he colluded with Russia to "steal" the election.
I despised Trump during the primaries and certainly didn't vote for him then but I did vote for him in the General Election and for one reason and one reason only. A vote for anyone else was a vote for Hillary and there was no way I was going to allow that to happen. If Hillary wins, we don't have Kavanaugh and I guarantee you RBG would've already retired so she could've appointed a far left Justice on the SCOTUS. I say that because the Russians had nothing to do with my decision, my vote, etc and I dare there were millions like me that only voted to keep her out.
As for your last section and those 5 things you state are "what is actually happening", I'm not sure your sources or if they are in fact happening or not, heck I don't know you may be on the inside with some good inside information Lol..... I'll admit I don't have all the facts or answers to those issues. What I do know as of now is the phone call that is the center of the impeachment process does not show anything impeachable imo. Asking a foreign leader to look into corruption between American citizens and foreign identities seems like a legit thing for the POTUS to do. Sure beats an administration basically green lighting the IRS to investigate conservatives, or helping an Attorney General cover up a gun smuggling operation into Mexico or lying about why an attack occurred at Benghazi that could've been prevented and yet nobody seems to care American soldiers died or Obama telling Medvedev "I'll have more flexibility to negotiate with Putin after the election" (collusion?), destroying thousands of emails/evidence, lying about it at every opportunity, etc etc
It's interesting to see Reagan conservatives side with and defend the liberal left so fervently just because they despise a man in office so much, I guess Trump has helped unification in some areas.
Downeastnc
Member
Well I know there was Russian collusion the Mueller report says as much, what the Mueller report says is that they can not prove conspiracy to do so that is why there was no charges for anything. Heck Trump Jr took a meeting with Russian nationals for the express purpose of being given information to use against Hillary....that is collusion.....no if and or buts. Also the Steele Dossier was not the kick off for the investigation but rather from George Papadopoulos running his drunk mouth off....
You will get no argument from me that the former administration was full of questionable stuff.......the GOP has had control of the DOJ for 3 years now and crickets.......sadly Trump has been exactly what I feared he would be and his actions are exactly why I and so many other Reagan Republicans were against him. He is going to down and a man like Trump will try to take it all down with him.....
Going back to Ukraine and Shokin, the move to remove him was international and Biden was not acting on his own here is a letter sent in 2016 with bipartisan support for reform of the prosecutor office ( IE removing Shokin ) this was supported by D&R's alike in the US and the EU.....
https://www.portman.senate.gov/news...enate-ukraine-caucus-reaffirm-commitment-help
This new story on Fox also is very interesting if they conclude that Trump was withholding aid money from Ukraine to extort them into lying about Biden then he is gone. The Giuliani stuff I posted early shows that he was feeding the State Dept and the Ukraine the story Trump wanted them to tell about the Biden's even if it was untrue.....if the Ukraine was under the impression they had to play ball to get the aid then Trump is gonna be dumped.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...al-quid-pro-quo-dispute/ar-AAIed8t?li=BBnb7Kz
I'm also a Reagan Republican who is not at all a Trump fan and who has repeatedly criticized him, but
1. He was not found by the Mueller Report to have colluded with Russia. I didn't think that was still debatable. The coverup yes but not collusion.
2. I'm not sure I'm following you about the 2nd bolded. Are you saying the Bidens didn't do what has been reported? I thought Joe, himself, essentially admitted to this. Keep in mind that I've been a Biden fan and in the recent past have stated why I think he would be beneficial for our country in 2020. So, I hope Joe really didn't do wrong. I'm so confused about this whole mess and don't know who to believe anymore.
Btw I'm the same age as you and a Reagan conservative, I can't say this enough, my comments aren't out of a loyalty to Trump at all cost.... like a cult following. I recognize those do exist. If there are facts that Trump committed an impeachable offense then roll on.
True the Portman letter does show some bi-partisan support to create a transparent and democratic government in Ukraine with a specific mention later in the letter of the Prosecutor Generals office. So we are ok with a government official, i.e. Vice President, telling the Ukraine President to fire the prosecutor or your not getting the billion dollars? I mean this is how the Obama administration worked, billion here to remove this person, billions to Iran to close a deal. It's funny the letter states Ukraine had decades of cronyism.... so use cronyism to remove cronyism. Ok
Now the news story from Fox: A few points, 1)It's a new story and sorry what reporters report are not always full on fact and usually don't tell the whole story 2) Here's what Rep. Jordan had to say in that story talking about Volker's interview "But not one thing he said comports with any of the Democrats' impeachment narrative, Not one thing.” 3) Then these text messages that they reference actually show that while there is debate about "quid pro quo" there really isn't anything there to show that at all. Here is part of the text they give "As I said on the phone, I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign," Taylor said in a text exchange. Sondland responded by saying that was not what was happening. "Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The President has been crystal clear: no quid pro quo's of any kind. The President is trying to evaluate whether Ukraine is truly going to adopt the transparency and reforms that President Zelensky promised during his campaign."
I said earlier I think the POTUS has a right if not a duty to look into corruption involving American citizens and foreign identities, even more so when those citizens are US Government officials. Trump has never said he wanted "dirt on the Biden's", he has only stated he is looking into allegations of corruption. And quite frankly if their was/still is corruption, and there very well could be, then do we really want to send aid until we get to the bottom of those issues to ensure our tax dollars are not used in some way shape or fashion against us in the next election or worse?
You can read a lot into news reports and most people form an opinion heavily swayed by their personal feeling towards an individual. It's why the left can be so quick to jump to conclusions and conclusions that are often more wrong then right.
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Downeastnc
Member
The fact that the #2 in the US embassy (Taylor) thinks that the money is being withheld tells me the Ukrainians think the money is being held up because they wont go after Biden, remember Giuliani had several meetings with Zelensky's aides who knows what he said or threatened....basically the boots on the ground for the USA in the Ukrainian Embassy thought the aid was held up pending Ukraine corporation with the Biden angle. That's significant.......
Sure Biden told the Ukraine to ditch Shokin or else they wouldn't get the money....but he did so representing the USA, his son was not even under investigation and NEVER has been....the ouster of Shokin had been urged and pushed by the USA/EU/IMF etc.....Shokin is a Russian stooge who was the root enabler of a lot of the corruption rampant in Ukraine....Biden's son was never under investigation by Shokin and the investigation into the company Biden Jr was with was from a period 2 yrs before Biden Jr joined them there simply is nothing there. The entire Crowdstrike/ DNC angle Giuliani and Trump are pushing is a conspiracy theory shot down numerous times....
Go read the Mueller report he absolutely states that Trump's campaign knew the Russians were interfering and welcomed it....its all there in black and white.....they just could not prove there was a conspiracy among them all to allow it.....but that does not mean they didn't do it either. How is Trump Jr meeting with Russian national government officials to get information to use against Hillary not collusion? It is, again what they cant prove is conspiracy which is the crime....
Sure Biden told the Ukraine to ditch Shokin or else they wouldn't get the money....but he did so representing the USA, his son was not even under investigation and NEVER has been....the ouster of Shokin had been urged and pushed by the USA/EU/IMF etc.....Shokin is a Russian stooge who was the root enabler of a lot of the corruption rampant in Ukraine....Biden's son was never under investigation by Shokin and the investigation into the company Biden Jr was with was from a period 2 yrs before Biden Jr joined them there simply is nothing there. The entire Crowdstrike/ DNC angle Giuliani and Trump are pushing is a conspiracy theory shot down numerous times....
Go read the Mueller report he absolutely states that Trump's campaign knew the Russians were interfering and welcomed it....its all there in black and white.....they just could not prove there was a conspiracy among them all to allow it.....but that does not mean they didn't do it either. How is Trump Jr meeting with Russian national government officials to get information to use against Hillary not collusion? It is, again what they cant prove is conspiracy which is the crime....
Trump haters will always claim the things are against him and the supporters will always claim things are for him and the rest of us just shrug our shoulders and yawn as we watch the national debt get higher and our country rot.
Wait I don't like being the target of these covert messages.... I'm no true Trump supporter
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Trump definitely is not fiscally conservative, in fact we've not had fiscally responsible leadership in the White House or Congress in decades.
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Not since the team of Gingrich and Clinton, who worked together well. I miss the days of cooperation between the parties.
Avalanche
Member
Clinton liked being popular. ---- Morris, his advisor at the time, told him to pass welfare reform, and hed win reelection. Clinton didnt like the idea, as it would be against his constituents desires, but he liked being popular and in this case that was a good quailty.
SimeonNC
Member
So idk if anyone else knows about this but Rashida Tlaib was outed as a racist, she made some statement to the Detroit police about how facial recognition AI needs to be operated by black people because apparently all non-blacks think all black people look alike.
What's funny is that the chief and the DP who argued against this were both black and Rashida still tried to argue against then.
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What's funny is that the chief and the DP who argued against this were both black and Rashida still tried to argue against then.
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Avalanche
Member
Bush and trump should be likeable by the left since they are willing to empty the treasury. However, they didnt. They didnt like romney or mccain, who wouldve been moderates at best. Truth is, the left isnt willing to participate with those on the right even when the right's policies might benefit them. So the way i see it, the lack of compromise and working together is on the left. All they did was obstruct during both rep administrations. Cant say we didnt throw them a few bones. They wanted nothing to do with it. So Trump goes all right wing. If youre not going to get cooperation from the left by being a centrist, then why be it? Lead how you got elected. If the country wanted a centrist, theyd have elected a romney or mccain instead of obama or trump.
Avalanche
Member
Look, we all see things through the prism of our own worldview. Lets agree to disagree, but be willing to hear truth and discard what is not.
I think it is both sides. I didn’t care for Obama at all because I thought he was divisive, especially when it came to class warfare and the lack of support for the police as an institution. I never voted for him. However, even I’ll acknowledge that the GOP as a whole had virtually no interest in working together with him.
Downeastnc
Member
This is my big thing, when the GOP did nothing but fight Obama at every turn the Republicans thought it was great, the Dems do it to Trump and its terrible....it also amazes me how people can rail against Obama and Hillary for all the crap they did wrong but as soon as they get their guy in they act like the same exact crap they do is NBD and its maddening.....
This is why we have such horrible options, how is it that in this great nation of ours Hillary and Trump somehow were the best options for President just well it literally makes my head hurt that there are people that look at these two idiots and think gee there is someone I want leading my country. Trump for instance is a blithering idiot, how anyone see's different than that boggles my mind, he is a egotistical maniac and frankly a spoiled manchild......and we put him in charge of the greatest nation on Earth....WTF.
Now we have all these Dems most of which are uber progressives ( blame this on Trump driving the Dem base out so hard that these idiots can run and win because they will take ANYONE over Trump ) and we are up for a redo of this in 2020....no matter who wins we all lose.
My hope is that somehow the GOP realizes what is going to happen in 2020 and dumps Trump, gets Pence to pick Nikki Haley as his VP and then announce he is not running and let her pick someone like Trey Gowdy to run with to pull the Trumpers back and beat Warren/whoever
Cad Wedge NC
Member
At least we agree on something...... I would definitely vote for Trey Gowdy!
Downeastnc
Member
Nikki Haley is the most well rounded person the GOP can run IMO, she should be the front runner in 2024......Trey appeals to the Trumpers for some reason even though he kind of gave Trump a hard time.....I like him because he has a low BS factor IMO....those two together would be a easy win for the GOP I think....thought there are easily a dozen others that could get the job done.
Downeastnc
Member
These text and phone call records from Volker that he turned over today are not good for Trump, very obvious they are using aid package and a official visit to the WH etc as leverage to get Ukraine to go after Bursima etc.....
https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_c...etter-on-state-departmnent-texts-10-03-19.pdf
https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_c...etter-on-state-departmnent-texts-10-03-19.pdf
Avalanche
Member
The difference here is republicans didnt agree with Obama on policy, and we debated policy. What the left is doing is discarding policy and arguing on lies and falsehoods. Completely different.
Downeastnc
Member
I disagree they pretty much disagree with Trump on policy, it does not help Trump that he is divisive and rude and unethical to boot.....similar to Obama only 100 fold worse, Obama was arrogant and condescending and felt entitled a had a huge ego.....but Trump is taking that to a entire new level.....
The latest texts out etc between Volker, Sonduland, Taylor and the Ukrainians ( I linked it above ) paint a very clear picture that US/Ukraine relations hinged on the Ukraine investigating Biden......they flat out tell them that Zelensky cant visit DC and Trump until he agrees to investigate......then say the aid being withheld to force that investigation is a bad move.....they will impeach Trump over this.....this is the so called smoking gun.
“Heard from White House — assuming President Z convinces trump he will investigate / ‘get to the bottom of what happened’ in 2016, we will nail down date for visit to Washington,” Volker texted Zelensky’s aide, Andrey Yermak, on July 25, hours before Trump and the Ukrainian president spoke via phone.
“Are we now saying that security assistance and WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?” U.S. Charges D’affaires in Ukraine William B. “Bill” Taylor texted to Sondland on Sept. 1,
“As I said on the phone, I think it’s crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign,” Taylor later texted Sondland on Sept. 9, complaining that the Trump administration’s decision to withhold congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine had already created a “nightmare scenario.”
There was one more text message from Sondland that you left off....
I'm really not trying to debate this today but I think it's only fitting that all the info gets out. Here's an affidavit from Shokin (and I get it you're not going to give his sworn statement any credit, but so much of what we have is he said/she said so only fair to look at all of it). This affidavit was part of an Austrian extradition case involving another wealthy Ukrainian businessman, Dmitry Firtash. Interesting stuff... but I digress, I'm going to let the process play out and see what happens. It's really wearing me out Lol
The dems would inpeach Trump if he farted in public as a crime against nature. The general public will not care even if they prove the aid was hinged on the investigation because no one in the general public is ignorant enough to believe this type of thing does not go on every day with every administration.
Heelyes
Member
I have a hard time believing Reagan would ask the Soviets to investigate a opponent or Bush asking China the same. I can't imagine W or Clinton needing help from a communist country to be reelected and if Obama went on national television and asked the Chinese to investigate Romney he would have been impeached the next day
Cad Wedge NC
Member
Trump wants to end the corruption.... let the chips fall where they may. This is not about digging up dirt on another candidate. It's about making the public aware of how disgraceful the past administration was.
Heelyes
Member
I can't think of a better example of corruption than a president using his power to get a foreign country help win a election. He asked for Russia to help with emails and China to look into Biden on national television. Even if everything he talks about is true, this isn't the way to act as president. I would never take the word of China or Russia about any political office holder in this country. If Biden is corrupt that doesn't excuse the way the president is handling it
If so (and I don't necessarily believe that this isn't about digging up dirt about another candidate...how do you know it isn't?), why is he wasting his energy and time on the past admin instead of concentrating on his own admin and not being so incredibly divisive? He always acts like he's President of the Red nation rather than the US as a whole. I thought Obama was quite divisive and didn't like him as POTUS for that reason. I think Trump is worse and I find no resemblance between Trump and the greatest POTUS of my lifetime, Reagan.
*Edit: And I'm a good bit more Red than Blue by the way (right of center overall). I'd have a lot of trouble liking someone like Warren as POTUS from an overall policy standpoint, for example. She seems extremely liberal to me and would hate to see her as the next POTUS. But Trump is making that possible.
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Avalanche
Member
I don't know how you see it as being divisive, but I do think the MSM narrative is divisive, and full of deceit. That's what he's up against and I fully support his efforts. The latest job numbers/economic news is great. The only people that I can see that could view him as divisive are the socialist and MSM networks.
It seems like these days politicians are either too far left or too far right for my taste. I would like to see a candidate who is more down the middle.
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