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Downeastnc said:
I agree and I didnt have a problem with impeaching Clinton for it.....I am just saying that lying about getting a hummer in the Oval Office is no where near the same as trying to extort a foreign government to interfere in the US presidential election process while using military aid ( IE taxpayer's money) to get compliance.
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If there are facts to prove your assertion, then there are facts and those most assuredly need to be dealt with ... so far, however, all that has been presented is hearsay that comes within no recognized exception to the Hearsay Rule (ergo, not "facts") and a good smattering of "bad character", which itself requires a strict certain predicate to be admissible in any "court" ... there is a process and if it is ignored, you and I as common folks have a problem when someone sues you ... the same rules apply across the board ... or do they?
 
pcbjr said:
If there are facts to prove your assertion, then there are facts and those most assuredly need to be dealt with ... so far, however, all that has been presented is hearsay that comes within no recognized exception to the Hearsay Rule (ergo, not "facts") and a good smattering of "bad character", which itself requires a strict certain predicate to be admissible in any "court" ... there is a process and if it is ignored, you and I as common folks have a problem when someone sues you ... the same rules apply across the board ... or do they?
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Not sure where this heresy stuff comes from, Amb. Sondland who was in direct contact with Trump confirmed he told the Ukrainians that in order to get the aid they had to announce investigations into Biden......this is not heresy, this GOP talking point that there is no proof or that no one has direct knowledge of Trump saying QPQ is BS, I am sure if others like Mulvaney, Giuliani etc actually testified truthfully there would be all the first hand accounts you want.....there is a reason Trump is saying none of these people can testify....
 
Downeastnc said:
Not sure where this heresy stuff comes from, Amb. Sondland who was in direct contact with Trump confirmed he told the Ukrainians that in order to get the aid they had to announce investigations into Biden......this is not heresy, this GOP talking point that there is no proof or that no one has direct knowledge of Trump saying QPQ is BS, I am sure if others like Mulvaney, Giuliani etc actually testified truthfully there would be all the first hand accounts you want.....there is a reason Trump is saying none of these people can testify....
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What should have Trump done to get attention on the situation if there was corruption by someone that just happened to be running for president? I understand Trump doesn't talk and follow the rules of DC. If I Was President and we were giving billions of dollars to a country that could be corrupt I would have stipulations on it also.
 
Downeastnc said:
Not sure where this heresy stuff comes from, Amb. Sondland who was in direct contact with Trump confirmed he told the Ukrainians that in order to get the aid they had to announce investigations into Biden......this is not heresy, this GOP talking point that there is no proof or that no one has direct knowledge of Trump saying QPQ is BS, I am sure if others like Mulvaney, Giuliani etc actually testified truthfully there would be all the first hand accounts you want.....there is a reason Trump is saying none of these people can testify....
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If there are facts to prove your assertion, then there are facts and those most assuredly need to be dealt with ... (what I said)

Would you please show me a quote that states: Amb. Sondland who was in direct contact with Trump confirmed he told the Ukrainians that in order to get the aid they had to announce investigations into Biden

and no, it is not heresy ...

it is a legal process and so far, there has been no true process ... if the process reveals bad deeds, then they should not by any stretch of the imagination go unpunished ... but the process itself so far has not been anything but a political circus, and that is not good for anyone except perhaps a pol ...
I'd hate to go to court on a show ... in fact, I wouldn't ...
 
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Bham 99 said:
What should have Trump done to get attention on the situation if there was corruption by someone that just happened to be running for president? I understand Trump doesn't talk and follow the rules of DC. If I Was President and we were giving billions of dollars to a country that could be corrupt I would have stipulations on it also.
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There is zero evidence of Biden doing anything illegal in the Ukraine....none, zero, zilch.....

There is no problem with their being stipulations on it, the problem is Trump only mentions Biden, Crowdstrike etc....he does not generalize it, he is using the resources of the USA to politically benefit himself and that is illegal and impeachable and frankly downright disgusting actions. Trump by his actions shows that he is willing to work with foreign governments to advance himself politically in the the USA, I mean this just validates the entire Mueller investigation even more.....

As the details come out and Rudy's and others role in this becomes better understood I think that the depth and scale of this effort will be huge, there is a entire angle here not even being really explored with Rudy, Parnas, Fruman and Firtash and their ties to Shokin......of how these people used their influence and power to convince Rudy and Trump to go after Amb Yovanovitch to help facilitate Firtash returning to the Ukraine etc....again there is tons here really this is all just the tip of the iceberg.
 
Downeastnc said:
There is zero evidence of Biden doing anything illegal in the Ukraine....none, zero, zilch.....

There is no problem with their being stipulations on it, the problem is Trump only mentions Biden, Crowdstrike etc....he does not generalize it, he is using the resources of the USA to politically benefit himself and that is illegal and impeachable and frankly downright disgusting actions. Trump by his actions shows that he is willing to work with foreign governments to advance himself politically in the the USA, I mean this just validates the entire Mueller investigation even more.....

As the details come out and Rudy's and others role in this becomes better understood I think that the depth and scale of this effort will be huge, there is a entire angle here not even being really explored with Rudy, Parnas, Fruman and Firtash and their ties to Shokin......of how these people used their influence and power to convince Rudy and Trump to go after Amb Yovanovitch to help facilitate Firtash returning to the Ukraine etc....again there is tons here really this is all just the tip of the iceberg.
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Didn't I see Joe Biden's video of extortion for a billion dollars. Maybe that wasn't him demanding the firing of an official who just happened to be investigating his son. I would call that illegal here in America.
 
XXX by his actions shows that he is willing to work with foreign governments to advance himself politically in the the USA

Huh?

Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Regan, Carter, Nixon (oops), ... Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt ... Adams and stop.
 
Cad Wedge NC said:
Didn't I see Joe Biden's video of extortion for a billion dollars. Maybe that wasn't him demanding the firing of an official who just happened to be investigating his son. I would call that illegal here in America.
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Point of fact.......Biden Jr was NEVER under investigation by Shokin or anyone else, secondly the reason Biden ( really the USA ) along with the EU, World Bank and others wanted Shokin gone was because he was corrupt and not doing enough to STOP corruption....why would Biden want the guy who was not even investigating his son fired and replaced by someone more capable and diligent about confronting corruption if him and his son were way deep into Ukrainian corruption?
 
Downeastnc said:
Point of fact.......Biden Jr was NEVER under investigation by Shokin or anyone else, secondly the reason Biden ( really the USA ) along with the EU, World Bank and others wanted Shokin gone was because he was corrupt and not doing enough to STOP corruption....why would Biden want the guy who was not even investigating his son fired and replaced by someone more capable and diligent about confronting corruption if him and his son were way deep into Ukrainian corruption?
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"Son of a -----" ...
 
One other question ... was Franklin being in Paris to try to persuade a foreign government to oppose another government (British) to overthrow that other government's hold on what we now call the USA a crime?
 
pcbjr said:
One other question ... was Franklin being in Paris to try to persuade a foreign government to oppose another government (British) to overthrow that other government's hold on what we now call the USA a crime?
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Of course not, these two things are not even remotely the same.....Trump or any politician cannot use their office to promote or benefit themselves personally.....this goes doubly for attempting to coerce a foreign government to do your dirty work by withholding desperately needed military aid in return for manufacturing dirt on your political rival.....in fact its illegal.

Franklin was not acting to benefit himself but rather the nation as a whole....
 
Bham 99 said:
What should have Trump done to get attention on the situation if there was corruption by someone that just happened to be running for president? I understand Trump doesn't talk and follow the rules of DC. If I Was President and we were giving billions of dollars to a country that could be corrupt I would have stipulations on it also.
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It's not up to the President to put stipulations on money that Congress has appropriated in a budget law. It's illegal.
 
crecre9 said:
It's not up to the President to put stipulations on money that Congress has appropriated in a budget law. It's illegal.
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The money was not withheld. If Trump did say it as media reports, then I say it was worth it to let them know that we are not going to be supporting corruption.
 
Bham 99 said:
The money was not withheld. If Trump did say it as media reports, then I say it was worth it to let them know that we are not going to be supporting corruption.
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Even if he didn't, and he lies under oath, or is found guilty of disrupting due process, he'll be at higher risk of being impeached and that there would literally be the opposite of what he's made everyone believe he was trying to do. Imagine that, saying you'll fight corruption and end up being the focal point of it. While there are so many other problems that need attention, if there was indeed corruption like this going on, maybe it'll tell the people how dirty and corrupt our system is and that we need to fix our politics instead of running "a leaky hose" vs a "broken baseball bat" which are both unappealing if you had to choose one or the other.
 
Urgh. While you all debate whether or not Trump is having a bad hair day, or using illegal means to end corruption, there are politicians on the opposite side who want to take 80 percent of the assets you've worked so hard for to leave your kids. There are politicians to have said we will keep your babies in a holding facility until you decide what to do with them (killing after birth). We have politicians who have said "we will kick your doors down and take your guns". Other ones like Bloomberg want to illegalize larger than 12oz cans of sodas.

So while you are comparing Trump to Obama or Clinton, try to compare the guy to people who might actually get voted in for the future such as Cortes and some of these others, then decide if Trumps presidency is really that bad for you in contrast with what those guys want to implement. Decide if Trump is worse to you than what you see going on in China (because that is where we are heading with the opposition).
 
Avalanche said:
Urgh. While you all debate whether or not Trump is having a bad hair day, or using illegal means to end corruption, there are politicians on the opposite side who want to take 80 percent of the assets you've worked so hard for to leave your kids. There are politicians to have said we will keep your babies in a holding facility until you decide what to do with them (killing after birth). We have politicians who have said "we will kick your doors down and take your guns". Other ones like Bloomberg want to illegalize larger than 12oz cans of sodas.

So while you are comparing Trump to Obama or Clinton, try to compare the guy to people who might actually get voted in for the future such as Cortes and some of these others, then decide if Trumps presidency is really that bad for you in contrast with what those guys want to implement. Decide if Trump is worse to you than what you see going on in China (because that is where we are heading with the opposition).
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So maybe I am wrong but it does seem you are suggesting that it does not matter if Trump is doing illegal and unethical actions because letting the Dems win will be bad for the country, this is in your opinion of course, keep in mind there are millions of other Americans that see it exactly opposite right now with Trump in office. So in the end what your saying is that its ok ( well not ok but your willing to look the other way) for Trump to violate the Constitution and ethical laws because you like his policies better than the other sides or am I wrong......its no wonder we are to the point we are in politics today as this is a common sentiment on both sides......
 
Avalanche said:
Urgh. While you all debate whether or not Trump is having a bad hair day, or using illegal means to end corruption, there are politicians on the opposite side who want to take 80 percent of the assets you've worked so hard for to leave your kids. There are politicians to have said we will keep your babies in a holding facility until you decide what to do with them (killing after birth). We have politicians who have said "we will kick your doors down and take your guns". Other ones like Bloomberg want to illegalize larger than 12oz cans of sodas.

So while you are comparing Trump to Obama or Clinton, try to compare the guy to people who might actually get voted in for the future such as Cortes and some of these others, then decide if Trumps presidency is really that bad for you in contrast with what those guys want to implement. Decide if Trump is worse to you than what you see going on in China (because that is where we are heading with the opposition).
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If Trump were to be removed from office or resign, you'd have Pence, who is more conservative/a true conservative. Also, as far as we know, Pence is a far better human being/not a jackass/has much more class and is a mature adult. What would be wrong with that? I bet you and many conservatives would like him more.
 
GaWx said:
If Trump were to be removed from office or resign, you'd have Pence, who is more conservative/a true conservative. Also, as far as we know, Pence is a far better human being/not a jackass/has much more class and is a mature adult. What would be wrong with that? I bet you and many conservatives would like him more.
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I would take Pence in a heartbeat, but to be honest they would do whatever they needed to try to have him removed too. It never stops, it's never going to stop.... everything, every issue, every breath for so many now is seen through the political prism and it's where we find ourselves.
 
This saddens me...

https://www.nationalreview.com/news...s-to-christian-charities-after-lgbt-backlash/

I said some time ago, that don't be surprised if Preachers were eventually forbidden from preaching against certain social issues (specifically abortion and gay marriage), I also stated I wouldn't be surprised if some eventually were in jeopardy or being arrested for doing so once such laws were put in place. I remember some comments that basically said it was ridiculous to say such things. Well a Christian business chooses to close on Sundays and takes a stand that they oppose gay marriage because of their Christian values has caved to the increasing pressures by the left to no longer donate to Christian organizations that oppose gay marriage. And the comments on social media are very telling of what a growing number of individuals would like to see happen..... come on, the Salvation Army and FCA are being called "anti-gay hate groups" really?? Anyone still think churches will not one day be in jeopardy if this continues? Just because I oppose a certain issue does not in fact mean I hate anyone... hate the sin not the person isn't just cliche, both things can be very true and it is very true. I don't hate anyone who supports those issues so why should hatred be turned back at me for opposing it?
 
GaWx said:
If Trump were to be removed from office or resign, you'd have Pence, who is more conservative/a true conservative. Also, as far as we know, Pence is a far better human being/not a jackass/has much more class and is a mature adult. What would be wrong with that? I bet you and many conservatives would like him more.
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I don't have any issues with Pence. I'm sure he is a good guy and what not. However, he would not shoot back at the media the same way the media would shoot at him. Trump does. He doesn't just allow them to spew off lies and hate and tuck his head. He fires back with the same medicine. Funny how a few want to discuss Trump being a jackass and then give the media and a whole host of democrat presidential candidates a pass for the nonsense they discuss daily on the news. Not a shot at you GaWx, just in general.
 
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