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Misc All Things Religious

This is what I was wondering. So you are making a belief (or opinion) claim; not an absolute claim. "Jesus and hell don't exist in my opinion" as opposed to "Jesus and hell don't exist.." To make an absolute claim, a rational and logical person should have proof. What you are saying is you believe they don't exist, or that you don't believe they do exist. Either way, you are making a statement that you "believe" to be true, since you cannot prove that statement. Opinions and beliefs also (by nature) automatically allow for the possibility that the opposite (or at least something different) could also be true. In this case, couldn't it also be true that Jesus and hell exist even of you don't believe it? As a logical and rational person, shouldn't that possibility also be considered?

"choose to believe in without proof and just circumstantial evidence. Or they could choose not to believe in without proof it does not exist.

We have zero evidence of a god. We have a story and that's about it. A story that closely resembles the epic of gilgamesh I might add.

To be honest we have no idea how all this is here and why we have a part in it. It could an alien ant farm. Theres just as much reference to visitors from the skies in ancient writings. Theres even a UFO in a da Vinci painting.
 
We have zero evidence of a god. We have a story and that's about it. A story that closely resembles the epic of gilgamesh I might add.

To be honest we have no idea how all this is here and why we have a part in it. It could an alien ant farm. Theres just as much reference to visitors from the skies in ancient writings. Theres even a UFO in a da Vinci painting.

"We have zero evidence of God." It probably won't surprise you for me to say I completely disagree with that statement. I think there is a ton of evidence for God. There have been lots of posts about that so I won't repost all of that here, unless you want me to, in which case I'll be happy to mention some. If you are waiting for Him to come sit on a mountain somewhere and proclaim His grandeur that's not going to happen.
 
Downeast, I hope this comes across as genuine, and not mockery. I really enjoy the conversation and welcome a challenge. Thank you for being willing to discuss this in a thread where your views are in the minority, in a respectful way!

If a god did create the universe who created god? Your answer will be that god has always been of course, but to me there is no difference between thinking a god has always existed versus thinking the universe has always existed, I guess my point is the universe may have always existed in some form, it does not need to have a beginning, just like you dont think god needs a beginning.....one of the biggest misunderstandings of the big bang is that it implies there was nothing before the big bang and thats not the case at all..... all I know for sure is the god you believe in does not exist, nor does any other god anyone on this planet believes in.

Every religion on this planet thinks their version is the correct version and everyone else has it wrong....literally thousands of different religions....seems awful sloppy for a god to make things this sloppy, why wont it come down to the mountain and make itself known....I fail to see why this is not happening.....if god would do these things 2,000 yrs ago why not now....why punish people for not believing when all you have for proof is a old book of fairy tales....I mean I know why these things dont happen now....there is no god....so instead over half the people on this planet according to Christians are going to hell because they believe in a different version of god than you guys do.

Again if god was so great why is it so lousy at getting its message out, do you really think people born and raised in other religions should just drop their's and accept Christianity? You do understand from where they sit your just as wrong in your beliefs as you think they are and that both of you cant be right.....and both of you think the other one is the one that's wrong...the irony of course is your both wrong :)

All of this is proof god and religion is not real, a perfect god if they really existed would not have made such a mess of things then punish those who fail to believe with eternal damnation...
 
If a god did create the universe who created god? Your answer will be that god has always been of course, but to me there is no difference between thinking a god has always existed versus thinking the universe has always existed, I guess my point is the universe may have always existed in some form, it does not need to have a beginning, just like you dont think god needs a beginning.....one of the biggest misunderstandings of the big bang is that it implies there was nothing before the big bang and thats not the case at all..... all I know for sure is the god you believe in does not exist, nor does any other god anyone on this planet believes in.

Every religion on this planet thinks their version is the correct version and everyone else has it wrong....literally thousands of different religions....seems awful sloppy for a god to make things this sloppy, why wont it come down to the mountain and make itself known....I fail to see why this is not happening.....if god would do these things 2,000 yrs ago why not now....why punish people for not believing when all you have for proof is a old book of fairy tales....I mean I know why these things dont happen now....there is no god....so instead over half the people on this planet according to Christians are going to hell because they believe in a different version of god than you guys do.

Again if god was so great why is it so lousy at getting its message out, do you really think people born and raised in other religions should just drop their's and accept Christianity? You do understand from where they sit your just as wrong in your beliefs as you think they are and that both of you cant be right.....and both of you think the other one is the one that's wrong...the irony of course is your both wrong :)

All of this is proof god and religion is not real, a perfect god if they really existed would not have made such a mess of things then punish those who fail to believe with eternal damnation...
Most of the fault is with the church not showing the world the power that is given to a Christian. The Church, run by humans put God in a box like everyone else.
 
Most of the fault is with the church not showing the world the power that is given to a Christian. The Church, run by humans put God in a box like everyone else.

Naw you cant do this, god is a GOD right?....if god allows humans to put the message in a box and then screw up the message so much so that BILLIONS of humans have a different god........its very lame and frankly not godly to do that, especially considering the punishment.

My point is if god was real and god requires obedience/acceptance for salvation but then turns around and does not have the rules and dogma set in stone along with ironclad proof of that then there should not be a punishment when of course people wont believe in that god.....but not only is there a punishment god literally sends you to a eternity of suffering lol...
 
Naw you cant do this, god is a GOD right?....if god allows humans to put the message in a box and then screw up the message so much so that BILLIONS of humans have a different god........its very lame and frankly not godly to do that, especially considering the punishment.

My point is if god was real and god requires obedience/acceptance for salvation but then turns around and does not have the rules and dogma set in stone along with ironclad proof of that then there should not be a punishment when of course people wont believe in that god.....but not only is there a punishment god literally sends you to a eternity of suffering lol...
We are supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling which means to pursue God and have a relationship with him and he reveals himself to you not based on what someone tells you, and not based on someone's pharaseeic mindset.
 
God is probably pretty busy around the universe ... mayby God gave us intellect, a free will, and some teaching and said take what I've given and you make of it what you will, all the while hoping that some would make good of it ... God can't change diapers for eternity ...
 
If a god did create the universe who created god? Your answer will be that god has always been of course, but to me there is no difference between thinking a god has always existed versus thinking the universe has always existed, I guess my point is the universe may have always existed in some form, it does not need to have a beginning, just like you dont think god needs a beginning.....one of the biggest misunderstandings of the big bang is that it implies there was nothing before the big bang and thats not the case at all..... all I know for sure is the god you believe in does not exist, nor does any other god anyone on this planet believes in.

Every religion on this planet thinks their version is the correct version and everyone else has it wrong....literally thousands of different religions....seems awful sloppy for a god to make things this sloppy, why wont it come down to the mountain and make itself known....I fail to see why this is not happening.....if god would do these things 2,000 yrs ago why not now....why punish people for not believing when all you have for proof is a old book of fairy tales....I mean I know why these things dont happen now....there is no god....so instead over half the people on this planet according to Christians are going to hell because they believe in a different version of god than you guys do.

Again if god was so great why is it so lousy at getting its message out, do you really think people born and raised in other religions should just drop their's and accept Christianity? You do understand from where they sit your just as wrong in your beliefs as you think they are and that both of you cant be right.....and both of you think the other one is the one that's wrong...the irony of course is your both wrong :)

All of this is proof god and religion is not real, a perfect god if they really existed would not have made such a mess of things then punish those who fail to believe with eternal damnation...
First of all you don't know for sure that God doesn't exist. Secondly, he did come down and He gave us a clear understanding of the correct religion. His Son spent 33 years on earth telling everyone exactly what they needed to do to get to Heaven. Too bad folks don't won't to believe it. They want a softer more gentle form of religion.... thus the different beliefs that have emerged.
 
First of all you don't know for sure that God doesn't exist. Secondly, he did come down and He gave us a clear understanding of the correct religion. His Son spent 33 years on earth telling everyone exactly what they needed to do to get to Heaven. Too bad folks don't won't to believe it. They want a softer more gentle form of religion.... thus the different beliefs that have emerged.
actually 3 years, a death and 3 days ...
 
First of all you don't know for sure that God doesn't exist. Secondly, he did come down and He gave us a clear understanding of the correct religion. His Son spent 33 years on earth telling everyone exactly what they needed to do to get to Heaven. Too bad folks don't won't to believe it. They want a softer more gentle form of religion.... thus the different beliefs that have emerged.

I am sure god doesn't exist, I am as sure it does not exist as you are that it does, unless of course you admit that you believe there is a chance that god is not real...

Jesus lived 2000 yrs ago, in a time where there was no reliable way to document anything, his life is told in books written decades and centuries after his death.....there is little to no actual evidence of Jesus outside of the bible.....he may not even have been a real person. Though I do think someone similar to a " Jesus" did actually live though obviously he was not the son of god etc....still the point is these stories and the religion that grew around them are in no way proof there is a god and certainly do not provide any real evidence of any sort that there is a god.

There were hundreds if not thousands of religions that existed before Christianity and frankly Christianity borrows from many of them.....
 
I am sure god doesn't exist, I am as sure it does not exist as you are that it does, unless of course you admit that you believe there is a chance that god is not real...

Jesus lived 2000 yrs ago, in a time where there was no reliable way to document anything, his life is told in books written decades and centuries after his death.....there is little to no actual evidence of Jesus outside of the bible.....he may not even have been a real person. Though I do think someone similar to a " Jesus" did actually live though obviously he was not the son of god etc....still the point is these stories and the religion that grew around them are in no way proof there is a god and certainly do not provide any real evidence of any sort that there is a god.

There were hundreds if not thousands of religions that existed before Christianity and frankly Christianity borrows from many of them.....
I hope you can find it somewhere in your heart or soul to pray for America tonight ...
 
Prayers have worked so well the last few nights...…
Yeah ... well maybe not enough of them, or maybe not the right kind ... Those dudes who and are fuc///// up... you know the word ...need to look deep inside themselves ... as do the rest of us ... now on to my farm and if anyone or anything akin to a varmint approaches ... well ... I have my own riot gear ...
 
I am sure god doesn't exist, I am as sure it does not exist as you are that it does, unless of course you admit that you believe there is a chance that god is not real...

Jesus lived 2000 yrs ago, in a time where there was no reliable way to document anything, his life is told in books written decades and centuries after his death.....there is little to no actual evidence of Jesus outside of the bible.....he may not even have been a real person. Though I do think someone similar to a " Jesus" did actually live though obviously he was not the son of god etc....still the point is these stories and the religion that grew around them are in no way proof there is a god and certainly do not provide any real evidence of any sort that there is a god.

There were hundreds if not thousands of religions that existed before Christianity and frankly Christianity borrows from many of them.....
Lol, Millions of years ago the I guess the NYT or some form of media was on the scene when that big bang theory took place?
 
Free will is granted to every man. If he desires to incline towards the good way and be righteous, he has the power to do so; and if he desires to incline towards the unrighteous way and be a wicked man, he also has the power to do so.
 
This article is from
Creation 32(4):18–20, October 2010

Who created God?
It’s an illogical question
by Don Batten
7526-domino
If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility.
This question is a major objection that atheists put forward to justify their disbelief. Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), a famous British philosopher, in his influential little essay, Why I am not a Christian, put this forward as his first objection.1 Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Australia’s own Philip Adams at the 2010 Global Atheists’ Congress in Melbourne Australia, who said,
“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”2
The universe had a beginning; almost no one disputes that, because the laws of thermodynamics demand it: the universe is running down and it cannot have been running down forever, or it would have already run down. No stars would be still churning out energy and we would not be here.
Some have proposed one universe giving birth to another, but again, there cannot be an infinite series of such births and deaths, as each cycle must have less energy available than the last and if this had been happening for eternity, the death of everything would have already happened.
There must have been a beginning
This principle of causation is so fundamental that if I said that the chair you are sitting on, which must have had a beginning, just popped into existence without any cause, you might justifiably think I need a psychiatric assessment!
One of the most established principles of logic / science / reality is the principle of causality: something that has a beginning has a sufficient cause. The principle is not, ‘Everything has a cause’; Bertrand Russell misstated it. No, the principle is, ‘Everything that has a beginning has a sufficient cause’. Just a moment’s thought confirms this—something which had no beginning has no need of a cause. Furthermore, a cause has to be sufficient, or adequate. ‘You were found in a cabbage patch’ is not a sufficient explanation for your existence.
This principle of causation is so fundamental that if I said that the chair you are sitting on, which must have had a beginning, just popped into existence without any cause, you might justifiably think I need a psychiatric assessment!
Today’s atheists, who like to use words like ‘rational’, ‘reasonable’ and ‘scientific’ in describing their beliefs, believe that the greatest beginning of all—that of the universe—had no cause whatsoever! Some admit it is a problem, but they claim that saying ‘God did it’ explains nothing because you then have to explain where God came from. But is this a valid objection?
What must the cause of the universe have been like?
The cause of the universe must have been non-material because if the cause was material / natural, it would be subject to the same laws of decay as the universe. That means it would have to have had a beginning itself and you have the same problem as cycles of births and deaths of universes. So the cause of the universe’s beginning must have been super-natural, i.e. non-material or spirit—a cause outside of space-matter-time. Such a cause would not be subject to the law of decay and so would not have a beginning. That is, the cause had to be eternal spirit.
Furthermore, the cause of the universe had to be incredibly powerful; the sheer size and energy seen in the universe together speak of that power; there had to be a sufficient cause.
That sounds like the God of the Bible to me. The Bible reveals the Creator of the universe as:
  • eternal
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (Psalm 90:2)
  • all-powerful
Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honour come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all. (1 Chronicles 29:11–12)
  • spirit (non-material)
God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)
Note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.
Furthermore, the cause of the universe had to be incredibly powerful; the sheer size and energy seen in the universe together speak of that power; there had to be a sufficient cause.
Now to ask where someone who is eternal, someone who had no beginning, came from (‘Who created God?’) is like asking, ‘To whom is the bachelor married?’ It is an irrational question.
The Bible matches reality, which is not surprising when we consider that it claims to be from the Creator Himself.
Two ‘great beginnings’—without any cause!
Those who reject the Creator not only have to believe that matter came into being without any cause; they also have to believe that life itself popped into existence without an adequate cause.
Even the simplest single-celled life is stupendously complex. A humble bacterium is full of incredibly sophisticated nano-machines that it needs to live.3 A cell needs a minimum of over 400 different proteins to make the machines that are absolutely essential for life.4 How could these protein-based machines make themselves, even if all the right ingredients (20 different amino acids, but many of each) could make themselves? The amino acids, often thousands of them, have to be joined together in the correct order for each protein to function.
Just think about one essential machine that copies the DNA instructions for making each protein.5 Then let’s take just one protein component of that machine, less than 10% of the total. This protein is 329 amino acids in length. What would be the chance of getting this one protein by chance, assuming that the correct, and only the correct, amino acid ingredients were present? Calculate it this way: 1/20 x 1/20 x 1/20 … 329 times!6 This is a probability of 1 in 10428 … a number with 428 zeros after the 1! Even if every atom in the universe (1080—a number with 80 zeros) represented an experiment for every molecular vibration possible (1012 per second) for the supposed evolutionary age of the universe (14 billion years=1018 seconds), this would allow ‘only’ 10110 experiments—a long, long way short of the number needed to have a ghost of a chance of getting just this one protein to form,7 let alone the over 400 others needed.
We marvel at the scientists who are discovering the nano-technology in living things—and it is an astonishing enterprise. But what of the One who invented these things? How much more intelligent is He?
It’s no wonder that Richard Dawkins admits that scientists might never work out how life could arise by natural processes. Nevertheless, he rejects the creation explanation for the fallacious reason above.
Now what sort of cause is sufficient to explain the origin of life? The cause must be incredibly intelligent—far beyond our intelligence. We marvel at the scientists who are discovering the nano-technology in living things—and it is an astonishing enterprise. But what of the One who invented these things? How much more intelligent is He? This reminds me of another characteristic of the God whom the Bible reveals: He is omniscient (all knowing). See Psalm 139:2–6; Isaiah 40:13–14.
We know sufficient about the Creator from His creation to be “without excuse”. Romans 1:18–22 says,
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools … ”
And here the Bible explains why otherwise intelligent people choose to believe impossible things—that firstly the universe, then life, just popped into existence without any adequate cause. They choose to illogically accept that their two ‘great beginnings’ had no sufficient cause, rather than acknowledge and honour their Creator
 
Lol, Millions of years ago the I guess the NYT or some form of media was on the scene when that big bang theory took place?

Nope that's why its a theory.....one constantly questioned and tested and eventually it will be refined or replaced with a better more sound theory....its a best guess based on the information at hand...
 
If a god did create the universe who created god? Your answer will be that god has always been of course, but to me there is no difference between thinking a god has always existed versus thinking the universe has always existed, I guess my point is the universe may have always existed in some form, it does not need to have a beginning, just like you dont think god needs a beginning.....one of the biggest misunderstandings of the big bang is that it implies there was nothing before the big bang and thats not the case at all..... all I know for sure is the god you believe in does not exist, nor does any other god anyone on this planet believes in.

Every religion on this planet thinks their version is the correct version and everyone else has it wrong....literally thousands of different religions....seems awful sloppy for a god to make things this sloppy, why wont it come down to the mountain and make itself known....I fail to see why this is not happening.....if god would do these things 2,000 yrs ago why not now....why punish people for not believing when all you have for proof is a old book of fairy tales....I mean I know why these things dont happen now....there is no god....so instead over half the people on this planet according to Christians are going to hell because they believe in a different version of god than you guys do.

Again if god was so great why is it so lousy at getting its message out, do you really think people born and raised in other religions should just drop their's and accept Christianity? You do understand from where they sit your just as wrong in your beliefs as you think they are and that both of you cant be right.....and both of you think the other one is the one that's wrong...the irony of course is your both wrong :)

All of this is proof god and religion is not real, a perfect god if they really existed would not have made such a mess of things then punish those who fail to believe with eternal damnation...

NCSnow posted some good information on the question of God being created. I would also add that if the universe were infinite (and has always existed) then it would have taken an infinite number of days for us to arrive to today, and thus today would never have come. Also, God exists outside of time, space, and matter and is not bound by time, though the universe is, so the analogy is not relevant. You can say you know for sure God does not exist but that is an absolute statement that you cannot prove, so it is really an opinion statement which you are free to believe in.

Regarding other religions and proof, there have been some excellent posts already on both but I think God does not show up to "prove" Himself because love is the supreme ethic. True love can only be given to God by choice. Him sitting on a mountain would remove the free will of choice for many and would beg the question whether or not that love was true or just a sense of duty. Regarding other countries, there are Christians all over the world. Many estimates show there are more practicing Christians in China than in the US. If people want to learn about God the opportunity is there and no government can prevent it. And there is evidence of Him everywhere if one is open to seeing it.

People have made a mess of things, not God. He does not punish us because of non-belief, per se. Hell (which is total separation from God) is a natural consequence of being separated from God here. We are automatically (all of us) born separated from God because our world (the world of humans) chose to turn away from Him long ago and we cannot, in our own power, reunite ourselves. That was the reason for Jesus. Now, because of Jesus, reunification is available for all who wish it. If a person does not want to be with God, He will not "force" them to be with Him in heaven. The alternative is hell; without Him. The choice is ours.
 
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