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Wintry Winter 2017-18 discussion

He did say his thoughts on the AO/NAO remaining mostly positive the first 1/2 to 2/3 of winter is due mostly to persistence. Again, seems like we're either going to the extreme of things staying the same forever, or it switches to the other end of the extreme to even things out.
 
Fishel going with 3 to 6 inches of snow here. Said 45% of past La Ninas in last 20 years had that range, while 33% had more than 6 inches. So the odds are actually in our favor here. Oh, and some of the biggest single storms we had in the last 20 years were during La Nina, including the January 2000 Carolina Crusher.
 
Charlotte experienced some hellacious ice storms in several of the winter analogs Allan(RaleighWx) noted in his winter forecast. An inch of liquid fell during the Christmas Day 1962 ice storm.
 
Charlotte experienced some hellacious ice storms in several of the winter analogs Allan(RaleighWx) noted in his winter forecast. An inch of liquid fell during the Christmas Day 1962 ice storm.
The ice storm that knocked down the wral tower was during a la niña, too.
 
Keep in mind since early 1970s for D,J,F we have only had 13 of those winters with negative nao. A few barely qualified almost neutral. You go back and look since late 1800s you'll see we end up with + nao winters by atleast a 3 almost 4 to 1 margin over time.
 
Keep in mind since early 1970s for D,J,F we have only had 13 of those winters with negative nao. A few barely qualified almost neutral. You go back and look since late 1800s you'll see we end up with + nao winters by atleast a 3 almost 4 to 1 margin over time.

This is a very good point and admittedly needs to be considered. I wasn't thinking about the frequency of -NAO So, -NAO has been at a significant disadvantage to +NAO frequencywise since the early 70s. Also, +PNA winters since the early 70s have been more frequent than -PNA winters. I hadn't realized that either. So, the correlation to +PNA is not as high when that is realized. -AO and -EPO, however, have had about the same frequency as +AO/+EPO since the early 70s. So, I don't think those two need an adjustment.
 
This is a very good point and admittedly needs to be considered. I wasn't thinking about the frequency of -NAO So, -NAO has been at a significant disadvantage to +NAO frequencywise since the early 70s. Also, +PNA winters since the early 70s have been more frequent than -PNA winters. I hadn't realized that either. So, the correlation to +PNA is not as high when that is realized. -AO and -EPO, however, have had about the same frequency as +AO/+EPO since the early 70s. So, I don't think those two need an adjustment.
Wow!! Between you and Webb lol.
 
Those two need to team up and work off each other like Eric Andre and Hannibal Burress... create some innovative weather forecasting insights..
 
Larry Cosgrove is going for a mild SE winter with much warmer than normal Dec-Jan and warmer than normal Feb. He's also going with well below normal snowfall. He's assuming cold neutral to weak La Nina ENSO. For comparison, last winter he went much warmer than normal Dec., warmer than normal Jan, and a little colder than normal Feb.
 
The Carolina Crusher happened during a winter with one of the strongest Ninas on record. So there's always hope.
 
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The even more impressive blizzard of early March 1927 came off the warmest February on record (until last year) in a -ENSO regime... For many in the southeastern US, it's actually still the warmest February on record. Not to mention this storm took a very unusual track for a very large winter storm in NC, originated as a hybrid Alberta Clipper that came east-southeastward across the Appalachians. Yes, there's definitely hope lol we need to take advantage of every opportunity we get because they're becoming increasingly less frequent w/ time as the bgd climate state continues to warm.
Screen Shot 2017-10-31 at 1.12.16 PM.png

March 1-3 1927 NC Snowmap .png
 
Since we are talking about historic snowstorms.. we can dream..
1775 December 23 - 25 GEORGIA AND SOUTH CAROLINA
In Western South Carolina on the Reedy River, it snowed without stopping for 30 hours, covering the ground about 2 feet deep. Near Winston-Salem, the snow was one and a half feet deep. In Georgia it was said to be generally 18 inches deep. Troops taking part in the Revolutionary War campaigns in the area marched in snow for up to 7 days.
 
As I mentioned earlier this Fall, this will be a winter with plenty of wedges and back-door cold fronts. If you like ice storms, this could be your winter. As we all know, it will come down to the amount of blocking and temps in the source region. Seeing the north get cold this early is a positive sign.
 
The WeatherBell Pioneer model has a chilly winter for the SE US with ~-1 to -1.5 F colder than normal, which is way colder than what JB has. I hope JB doesn't cover his butt if the winter were to end up cold by saying "even though I was warm, the Pioneer was cold blah blah blah...." to try to get partial credit.
 
I saw the map. It looks good, but I am a little skeptical. If other more reliable models get on board, then I will feel better.
 
eee076f5553481b464f9446a19782f46.jpg



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The WeatherBell Pioneer model has a chilly winter for the SE US with ~-1 to -1.5 F colder than normal, which is way colder than what JB has. I hope JB doesn't cover his butt if the winter were to end up cold by saying "even though I was warm, the Pioneer was cold blah blah blah...." to try to get partial credit.

This is the pioneer model for last year’s winter. Call me skeptical.
0f791b95458f048ee2982349d266a728.jpg



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This is the pioneer model for last year’s winter. Call me skeptical.
0f791b95458f048ee2982349d266a728.jpg



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It's amazing how all that cold goes away when you use a more applicable base period (1895-2000) which skews the temperature anomalies warmer to account for AGW and add March, which arguably should be given due consideration in winter forecasts, esp given it's the 3rd snowiest month in the Carolinas... If anything, the pioneer model for DJFM couldn't have been any further from reality. Yeah I wouldnt take them seriously...
cd152.7.224.4.304.8.50.7.prcp.png

cd152.7.224.4.304.8.54.31.prcp.png
 
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It's amazing how all that cold goes away when you use a more applicable base period (1895-2000) which skews the temperature anomalies warmer to account for AGW and add March, which arguably should be given due consideration in winter forecasts, esp given it's the 3rd snowiest month in the Carolinas... If anything, the pioneer model for DJFM couldn't have been any further from reality. Yeah I wouldnt take them seriously...
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You can essentially sift through dozens of analog years for various reasons and just pick a blend that is already geared to your thoughts or what you “hope” happens in the upcoming winter year. I fear most JB related stuff, including the pioneer model, is mostly due to confirmation bias.

I messed with composite maps until my eyes bled last year, I maybe got 5 out of 100 that even remotely portrayed what happened in actuality. It’s a learning experience, but I feel like many forecasters never quite learn it.


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The past two years we've seen fast advancing snow in Siberia and it was still warm. Anything mentioning the sai will be taken with a grain of salt as far as I'm concerned.

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I agree although I'm not saying this because it would be better for our winter for this year's SAI signal to be wrong. I'm saying that because it no longer has credibility to me, something I've been saying. If the result had been the opposite, implying a good signal for our winter, I'd have said the same thing..take with a grain no matter what it suggests for the winter/AO.
 
Strong Polar Vortex is bad news.

Maybe not. Last year we had a very weak PV and splitting at this time period and the PV was weak for a majority of the winter and that didn’t do anything for us. Maybe having it strong right now and hoping for a split when it matters down the road during the climo favored months is more ideal. Obviously don’t want a very strong PV for the entirety of winter....but I’ll take it, for now.


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You can essentially sift through dozens of analog years for various reasons and just pick a blend that is already geared to your thoughts or what you “hope” happens in the upcoming winter year. I fear most JB related stuff, including the pioneer model, is mostly due to confirmation bias.

I messed with composite maps until my eyes bled last year, I maybe got 5 out of 100 that even remotely portrayed what happened in actuality. It’s a learning experience, but I feel like many forecasters never quite learn it.


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Yeah I think most even degreed mets don't understand the true value of analogs, many create them, initializing with current conditions and treat their output as gospel and often only produce one or maybe a few sets of them without giving any due consideration to other variables. Appallingly, many even compare the analogs to climatological base periods that are far outside the temporal range of the analogs of interest (occurs most often with NOAA US PSD data where post 1950 analogs are used by are compared against the 1981-2010 base period and are thus depicted cooler than what they should be). If you really boil it down conceptually, analogs are basically a determinstic, statistical, historical model. If everyone treated these analogs like a numerical weather prediction model, with many of the same basic nuances, sampling, resolution, and dynamical uncertainties and biases, and that skill increasingly degrades with time and may even be state dependent (meaning that analogs in general may more perform better in reanalyzing and forecasting the weather), we would be a lot better off and wouldn't have nearly the issues we currently do wrt analogs. Any model is going to be an imperfect representation of the current state ocean and atmosphere in some way, shape, or form because we can't measure and evaluate the weather at every single point on the globe at all possible times to perfection, we are limited in our spatial and temporal coverage, instrumental and statistical interpolating uncertainities as well as other unforeseen, & often less significant sources of error. For analogs specifically, a few other sources of error emerge, from the broad assumption that the weather that's occurred in the past will repeat itself exactly in the future with no statistically significant dynamically changes at any point in time or space in any of the observed phenomena, & that the observed frequency distribution of said phenomena is Ironclad and/or completely set in stone and contains more than enough events s.t it can may yield significant results and similar deterministic historical depictions of the ocean and atmosphere would not diverge much from observations. Rather, (as I mentioned in a previous heated discussion with Larry), they should be treated as only one solution of infinitely many that are possible for a given climate background, thus, there exists an inherent amount of uncertainty that a forecaster, climatologist, or other scientist should know and they need to adjust or word their forecast accordingly. This all of course means that even if your analogs initialized the current state of the ocean and atmosphere perfectly, you have to be able to understand the physical processes, trends, and potential for stochastic external events that are and may drive the overall weather pattern in the future and only use your analogs, like an operational NWP model, as as a tool, not a forecast. Henceforth, this also means that you must dynamically adjust them to things that may not be adequately captured by the historical record, such as global warming and random variability, & the alterations to the general circulation that may accompany it.
 
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Yeah I think most even degreed mets don't understand the true value of analogs, many create them, initializing with current conditions and treat their output as gospel and often only produce one or maybe a few sets of them without giving any due consideration to other variables. Appallingly, many even compare the analogs to climatological base periods that are far outside the temporal range of the analogs of interest (occurs most often with NOAA US PSD data where post 1950 analogs are used by are compared against the 1981-2010 base period and are thus depicted cooler than what they should be). If you really boil it down conceptually, analogs are basically a determinstic, statistical, historical model. If everyone treated these analogs like a numerical weather prediction model, with many of the same basic nuances, sampling, resolution, and dynamical uncertainties and biases, and that skill increasingly degrades with time and may even be state dependent (meaning that analogs in general may more perform better in reanalyzing and forecasting the weather), we would be a lot better off and wouldn't have nearly the issues we currently do wrt analogs. Any model is going to be an imperfect representation of the current state ocean and atmosphere in some way, shape, or form because we can't measure and evaluate the weather at every single point on the globe at all possible times to perfection, we are limited in our spatial and temporal coverage, instrumental and statistical interpolating uncertainities as well as other unforeseen, & often less significant sources of error. For analogs specifically, a few other sources of error emerge, from the broad assumption that the weather that's occurred in the past will repeat itself exactly in the future with no statistically significant dynamically changes at any point in time or space in any of the observed phenomena, & that the observed frequency distribution of said phenomena is Ironclad and/or completely set in stone and contains more than enough events s.t it can may yield significant results and similar deterministic historical depictions of the ocean and atmosphere would not diverge much from observations. Rather, (as I mentioned in a previous heated discussion with Larry), they should be treated as only one solution of infinitely many that are possible for a given climate background, thus, there exists an inherent amount of uncertainty that a forecaster, climatologist, or other scientist should know and they need to adjust or word their forecast accordingly. This all of course means that even if your analogs initialized the current state of the ocean and atmosphere perfectly, you have to be able to understand the physical processes, trends, and potential for stochastic external events that are and may drive the overall weather pattern in the future and only use your analogs, like an operational NWP model, as as a tool, not a forecast. Henceforth, this also means that you must dynamically adjust them to things that may not be adequately captured by the historical record, such as global warming, & the alterations to the general circulation that may accompany it.
Webb,
That is by far the best, most cohesive, and IMHO spot on post you've ever made, here or "over there". Kudos.
Best!
Phil
 
Yeah I think most even degreed mets don't understand the true value of analogs, many create them, initializing with current conditions and treat their output as gospel and often only produce one or maybe a few sets of them without giving any due consideration to other variables. Appallingly, many even compare the analogs to climatological base periods that are far outside the temporal range of the analogs of interest (occurs most often with NOAA US PSD data where post 1950 analogs are used by are compared against the 1981-2010 base period and are thus depicted cooler than what they should be). If you really boil it down conceptually, analogs are basically a determinstic, statistical, historical model. If everyone treated these analogs like a numerical weather prediction model, with many of the same basic nuances, sampling, resolution, and dynamical uncertainties and biases, and that skill increasingly degrades with time and may even be state dependent (meaning that analogs in general may more perform better in reanalyzing and forecasting the weather), we would be a lot better off and wouldn't have nearly the issues we currently do wrt analogs. Any model is going to be an imperfect representation of the current state ocean and atmosphere in some way, shape, or form because we can't measure and evaluate the weather at every single point on the globe at all possible times to perfection, we are limited in our spatial and temporal coverage, instrumental and statistical interpolating uncertainities as well as other unforeseen, & often less significant sources of error. For analogs specifically, a few other sources of error emerge, from the broad assumption that the weather that's occurred in the past will repeat itself exactly in the future with no statistically significant dynamically changes at any point in time or space in any of the observed phenomena, & that the observed frequency distribution of said phenomena is Ironclad and/or completely set in stone and contains more than enough events s.t it can may yield significant results and similar deterministic historical depictions of the ocean and atmosphere would not diverge much from observations. Rather, (as I mentioned in a previous heated discussion with Larry), they should be treated as only one solution of infinitely many that are possible for a given climate background, thus, there exists an inherent amount of uncertainty that a forecaster, climatologist, or other scientist should know and they need to adjust or word their forecast accordingly. This all of course means that even if your analogs initialized the current state of the ocean and atmosphere perfectly, you have to be able to understand the physical processes, trends, and potential for stochastic external events that are and may drive the overall weather pattern in the future and only use your analogs, like an operational NWP model, as as a tool, not a forecast. Henceforth, this also means that you must dynamically adjust them to things that may not be adequately captured by the historical record, such as global warming and random variability, & the alterations to the general circulation that may accompany it.

Well put!


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The even more impressive blizzard of early March 1927 came off the warmest February on record (until last year) in a -ENSO regime... For many in the southeastern US, it's actually still the warmest February on record. Not to mention this storm took a very unusual track for a very large winter storm in NC, originated as a hybrid Alberta Clipper that came east-southeastward across the Appalachians. Yes, there's definitely hope lol we need to take advantage of every opportunity we get because they're becoming increasingly less frequent w/ time as the bgd climate state continues to warm.
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View attachment 1455
crazy storm there... CHA had a 2 day storm total of 11 inches. Was the all time biggest March snowstorm until the 93 storm of the century.

so this wasn't a Miller A type storm either? Wow, wish I had access to maps for this..
 
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As I posted in the November thread I'm very intrigued by the high latitude blocking going on over Russia on the models

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As I posted in the November thread I'm very intrigued by the high latitude blocking going on over Russia on the models

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Sd, why are you intrigued about that overseas? I know the models are trying to develop a -nao
 
Sd, why are you intrigued about that overseas? I know the models are trying to develop a -nao
My big thing is it should set up a cold pattern in Canada and increase snow cover. It'll also be interesting you see if it reappears in winter. It would certainly favor a -ao and cold dumps into at minimum the western and northern US. I could be wrong but it is a reversal of the last 2 Novembers

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Maybe a met could answer this but, weird thing I have always wondered, if we had a huge lake above us, say it covers just north of say from Arkansas all the way to North Carolina, would we have huge snow amounts for winter because the lake wound never get really cold and it seems to me every time a cold front blasted through we would have a crap load of snow bands blowing off this lake wouldn’t we? This is not a wide lake, more long but wide enough to create bands. Just was wondering, weird thought I know. Seems like it would be a perfect area cause the lake would never get too cold so would produce a lot of updraft every cold front. And when we really got a huge front it would produce dangerous amounts of snow with temp deference’s.
 
Maybe a met could answer this but, weird thing I have always wondered, if we had a huge lake above us, say it covers just north of say from Arkansas all the way to North Carolina, would we have huge snow amounts for winter because the lake wound never get really cold and it seems to me every time a cold front blasted through we would have a crap load of snow bands blowing off this lake wouldn’t we? This is not a wide lake, more long but wide enough to create bands. Just was wondering, weird thought I know. Seems like it would be a perfect area cause the lake would never get too cold so would produce a lot of updraft every cold front. And when we really got a huge front it would produce dangerous amounts of snow with temp deference’s.
Move to South Bend, IN - works every year ... :confused:
 
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