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Ukraine

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Rain Cold said:
If you don't think there is historical precedent to support the possibility of deception around something like this, then there's not really much point in discussing it.

I'm going to make a prediction. If the war drags on long enough in Ukraine, there is going to be some kind of chemical or nuclear "incident". Russia will of course be blamed. Eventually, that will lead to direct conflict between Russia and the west. We'll have to get involved, and our troops will be put in harm's way. I hope that's wrong, but that's the table that's being set right in front of us. And the western world won't require any significant evidence that Russia was behind the attack. It will be "trust us, we know." Lots of people will die because of "trust us, we know." That bothers me, particularly when the "us" we're supposed to trust has been caught being less than trustworthy on more than one occasion.
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This is actually a really good point because they want us directly in this conflict by any means necessary. In many ways we already are just not with boots on the ground
 
This is exactly the kind of conversation we should be engaging in. Original thought is only dead in the realms of social media and "news" outlets. I like to come here and read about stocks because it is a lot of guys like me. There are no people being financially inserted into the conversation to direct someone's agenda. Twitter has been proven to be full of this political agenda on both sides and it is to the point of influencing decision making in our country. As a community we are intelligent enough to form our own opinions, and that's the value here. I don't want to hear TWC hyping up hurricanes I want to hear honest people's ideas on storms....ok maybe a little bias. It's fine to be on opposite sides but atleast try to filter the news they are feeding us with your own sensibilities. We have the last few years as a great reason for skepticism.
 
Jessy89 said:
That’s like saying if The UK nuked another country. America is responsible because UK and USA are ally’s


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No if Syrian troops are in Ukraine its because Putin wanted them there.....if they use chemicals its because Putin wanted it....thus it would be Putin's fault, nevermind the simple fact that the only reason Syrian troops would be there is Putin INVADED Ukraine....
 
Rain Cold said:
I don't know anything about this situation that others don't know. I suspect I believe things that others don't believe, or more accurately don't believe things that others believe. I believe it's intellectually lazy to buy into all of the statements put forward and posted so frequently here, and blithely dismiss anything counter as Russian propaganda or conspiracy theory. You don't really have to be a conspiracy theorist to expect misinformation, especially when so much is on the line, but I understand why you would insinuate that.

Edit: And I'm not trying to call anyone out for posting anything they want to post in here. All of the information out there should be available. I'm just saying that I think it's unwise to believe all of it, just because we come in with certain viewpoints, and get so ginned up that we don't think critically about it. This could be an important one to make sure we get right.
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Everyone who doesn’t see it as you see it is intellectually lazy. Got it.
 
Thor said:
This is exactly the kind of conversation we should be engaging in. Original thought is only dead in the realms of social media and "news" outlets. I like to come here and read about stocks because it is a lot of guys like me. There are no people being financially inserted into the conversation to direct someone's agenda. Twitter has been proven to be full of this political agenda on both sides and it is to the point of influencing decision making in our country. As a community we are intelligent enough to form our own opinions, and that's the value here. I don't want to hear TWC hyping up hurricanes I want to hear honest people's ideas on storms....ok maybe a little bias. It's fine to be on opposite sides but atleast try to filter the news they are feeding us with your own sensibilities. We have the last few years as a great reason for skepticism.
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100% ... and Folks ... don't take it pesrsonally ... it's called dialogue (applies to Mods as well if I may be so bold) ....
 
Downeastnc said:
No if Syrian troops are in Ukraine its because Putin wanted them there.....if they use chemicals its because Putin wanted it....thus it would be Putin's fault, nevermind the simple fact that the only reason Syrian troops would be there is Putin INVADED Ukraine....
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It’s still Russia Russia Russia… No need to look at anyone else.


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Downeastnc said:
This is correct, if chemical weapons are used its going to be Russia or one of their proxies that does it.....there is absolutely zero reason to think otherwise.
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If you want to keep your thinking inside a box fine. But I choose to think outside the box and expect the unexpected


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Rain Cold said:
If some event is going to be used to get us directly involved in what would be the most significant engagement of our lifetimes, to not demand proof of matters pertaining to that event seems really weird.
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What evidence did you need to trust that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine in the first place? You've set the stage for denial by questioning US intel/motives whilst simultaneously asking for something that only they can provide in order for you to believe it, hence why I said "proof" is ultimately subjective. You don't want any part of this war, I totally understand that. You don't want to believe a single thing this government says, I totally understand that too. But I have been on the other side, and I know the people who currently have skin in this affair by gathering and analyzing intel, who are currently overhead in an E-3A or looking at real time satellite data, and I'll be damned if I am going to discount their work because I hate who reads it to us. I get that it's hard to separate affairs of the world with motives of the government, I get it and it's a hard balancing act for me too.

I for one do not trust Putin one bit. He said he invaded because he wanted to "Denazify" Ukraine, yet he's bombing women and children while making his way towards Moldova. He justified his actions because Ukraine had become too "extremist" yet he says his own country needs a cultural purification. He said he needed to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO while both NATO and Ukraine admitted it was never going to happen. Putin is a liar, Putin has proven he has no limitations, so my threshold of proof on him using extreme measures may be a little lower than yours. He's already proven enough to know he can't be trusted one bit.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
What evidence did you need to trust that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine in the first place? You've set the stage for denial by questioning US intel/motives whilst simultaneously asking for something that only they can provide in order for you to believe it, hence why I said "proof" is ultimately subjective. You don't want any part of this war, I totally understand that. You don't want to believe a single thing this government says, I totally understand that too. But I have been on the other side, and I know the people who currently have skin in this affair by gathering and analyzing intel, who are currently overhead in an E-3A or looking at real time satellite data, and I'll be damned if I am going to discount their work because I hate who reads it to us. I get that it's hard to separate affairs of the world with motives of the government, I get it and it's a hard balancing act for me too.

I for one do not trust Putin one bit. He said he invaded because he wanted to "Denazify" Ukraine, yet he's bombing women and children while making his way towards Moldova. He justified his actions because Ukraine had become too "extremist" yet he says his own country needs a cultural purification. He said he needed to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO while both NATO and Ukraine admitted it was never going to happen. Putin is a liar, Putin has proven he has no limitations, so my threshold of proof on him using extreme measures may be a little lower than yours. He's already proven enough to know he can't be trusted one bit.
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Well put, there is only one bad actor in this current situation, and whether intended to or not some post seem to be giving Putin some level of benefit of the doubt where none is deserved or owed or earned.


Some E3 love......they know whats going on, and the Russian radio/communication security is ----.....making it much easier.

 
Downeastnc said:
Well put, there is only one bad actor in this current situation, and whether intended to or not some post seem to be giving Putin some level of benefit of the doubt where none is deserved or owed or earned.


Some E3 love......they know whats going on, and the Russian radio/communication security is ----.....making it much easier.

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Probably because they see the world inching toward war and are trying to find a way out. I did the same before he invaded, but as the days go on I lose hope that this will be resolved without a war and that Putin may just about try anything.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
What evidence did you need to trust that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine in the first place? You've set the stage for denial by questioning US intel/motives whilst simultaneously asking for something that only they can provide in order for you to believe it, hence why I said "proof" is ultimately subjective. You don't want any part of this war, I totally understand that. You don't want to believe a single thing this government says, I totally understand that too. But I have been on the other side, and I know the people who currently have skin in this affair by gathering and analyzing intel, who are currently overhead in an E-3A or looking at real time satellite data, and I'll be damned if I am going to discount their work because I hate who reads it to us. I get that it's hard to separate affairs of the world with motives of the government, I get it and it's a hard balancing act for me too.

I for one do not trust Putin one bit. He said he invaded because he wanted to "Denazify" Ukraine, yet he's bombing women and children while making his way towards Moldova. He justified his actions because Ukraine had become too "extremist" yet he says his own country needs a cultural purification. He said he needed to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO while both NATO and Ukraine admitted it was never going to happen. Putin is a liar, Putin has proven he has no limitations, so my threshold of proof on him using extreme measures may be a little lower than yours. He's already proven enough to know he can't be trusted one bit.
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This one is pretty easy. Essentially, the entire world is in agreement that Russia invaded. You even said in your second paragraph that Putin admitted he invaded. And nobody is denying it. Now is that the threshold for proof in every instance moving forward? Maybe not, but it seems reasonable for this example. And mad props on using the word "whist". That one flies under the radar.

Now, the second point. It's not that I have no trust for our government. It's that I don't have comprehensive trust in our government...or our media. I won't provide examples as to why, as I suspect you probably know many of them. But suffice it to say, if we wanted to, we could bury the thread in examples.

I see no logical reason to blindly trust what people, who seem to want a war, say in order to get one. I don't trust their word enough. Sorry if this is kind of disjointed...I'm driving and have had to type in segments at stoplights lol.

I agree with you 100% though that Putin is bad.
 
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NCSNOW said:
Vice versa everything that doesnt line up with and suport your way of thinking is a conspiracy theory. Road works both ways.
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The issue is with the charge of intellectual laziness and speaking like he knows things others don’t. That’s the issue. There are other ways of communicating one’s view without coming off as such.
 
Rain Cold said:
This one is pretty easy. Essentially, the entire world is in agreement that Russia invaded. You even said in your second paragraph that Putin admitted he invaded. And nobody is denying it. Now is that the threshold for proof in every instance moving forward? Maybe not, but it seems reasonable for this example. And mad props on using the word "whist". That one flies under the radar.

Now, the second point. It's not that I have no trust for our government. It's that I don't have comprehensive trust in our government...or our media. I won't provide examples as to why, as I suspect you probably know many of them. But suffice it to say, if we wanted to, we could bury the thread in examples.

I see no logical reason to blindly trust what people, who seem to want a war, say in order to get one. I don't trust their word enough. Sorry if this is kind of disjointed...I'm driving and have had to type in segments at stoplights lol.

I agree with you 100% though that Putin is bad.
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Which people are saying things to get a war though? This is where I lose you, I dont see anyone on the western side of this thing trying to push this to WW3 etc.....
 
Pretty solid breakdown on the war so far.....

Institute for the Study of War

Russian forces did not make any major advances and Ukrainian forces carried out several local counterattacks on March 17. Russian forces made little territorial progress and continued to deploy reserve elements—including from the 1st Guards Tank Army and
www.understandingwar.org www.understandingwar.org
 
VegasEagle said:

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Well I’m concerned about china/Russia but I don’t blame china if they do help Russia. Let me explain as I’ve done before china and Russia are not NATO members. So China/Russia would be wise to align. Because china/Russia is stronger together then they are apart. NATO is a really powerful alliance. I can’t blame non NATO countries for forming there own alliance


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Downeastnc said:
Which people are saying things to get a war though? This is where I lose you, I dont see anyone on the western side of this thing trying to push this to WW3 etc.....
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I would say a certain senator pushing for the assassination of a world leader, more senators supporting a no fly zone, a US official saying baring Russia from international waters is on the table, congress allowing the Ukraine President to address and beg for for weapons and such and pull on heart strings, and the growing complexity of weapons sent gives a pretty good message that we are being slowly pushed toward war.

All that said, I don’t disagree with sending them weapons or allowing the President to address Congress, but it is what it is.
 
Jessy89 said:
China is a huge threat to America. They can wipe about 80% of stuff off the shelves of Walmart if they wanted to. Sanction china if you want to but it would come at a cost


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If America thinks they can Cancel CHINA they are in for a rude awakening. Almost like some want the Dollar devalued FASTER.
 
severestorm said:
Notice how they clown people but don't post factual rebuttals. @Broken024 , no exception to that.
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I don't respond out-of respect for the thread and the Admins who want this to not stray from the intent of the thread.

China would be a threat if they didn't need our money to drive their economy.
 
Shaggy said:
I don't respond out-of respect for the thread and the Admins who want this to not stray from the intent of the thread.

China would be a threat if they didn't need our money to drive their economy.
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Shaggy I’m just trying to have a reasonable conversation. I think while perhaps we would be able to hurt chinas economy. China could also hurt our economy because 80% of what on store shelves Is made in china. What happens when China says well your not getting anything else from us we going to stop doing business with the United States. Well shelves would be more bare then they are now. And when shelves do get stocked back up inflation will sky rocket more then it is now. I believe yes we can destroy Chinas economy but China can severely hurt ours as well. This topic has everything to do with Ukraine it’s what can really happen if China helps Russia I’m just discussing such a scenario


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There is a balancing act. I do not want us as police either. But as one of the top military and economical forces we do have to make our presence known. We can not ignore what is happening and we can not stand on the side lines and watch countries invading. In WW2 we stood on the sidelines until we got attacked. We ignored the European wars and millions died. As for Ukraine I feel for them, they used to have the third largest nuke armaments in the world. The Budapest agreement ( US, UK and Russia) with Ukraine stated we would respect their borders and etc if they give up and stop production of nukes. We have seen what happened. No other country is going to give up their nukes and I expect we will see a lot more countries making nukes now.
 
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