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Looks like unless something unexpected happens the GOP will prevent any witnesses from being called, looks like Romney and Collins will vote for witnesses , Alexander in a crazy statement says the House proved their case and he thinks Trump is probably guilty but its not impeachable and so votes no for witnesses so that is odd, so really that leave Murkowski who is a question mark but even if she votes for witnesses that leave it at 50-50, they would need another Rep to vote with them and there does not appear to be anyone else....Roberts would probably abstain from casting the tie breaker meaning no witnesses, but if I had to guess Murkowski votes no making it 51-49 to prevent putting Roberts in that position. Hopefully this a rope a dope and the GOP finds enough to get witnesses but its pretty doubtful.

Trump and his supporters will treat this as a victory but it is going to fire the Dem base up and hurt Trump bigly with independents and moderates. Then I suspect the House will call Bolton and Parnas to open sessions and when all the details come out and show just how far down the corruption rabbit hole Trump and friends are its going to make them all look very bad.....

In the end this will be a big win for Trump and party politics and the Trumpers will be glad they stuck it to the libtards, the losers will be the rule of law and Constitution as Trump continues to successfully destroy the separation of power....the GOP will rue the day they set this precedent.

The voters will get to decide in 2020 on this issue no matter what the GOP does tomorrow. I also wouldn't be surprised if we get a last minute "Jeff Flake" type of surprise but also wouldn't be surprised if it ends in a 50-50 tie.
 
Regardless of what he threatened they should have pursued it if they wanted to do a thorough investigation and truly believed Trump was guilty. The fact they didn't and that they dropped Kupperman when he would have been a key witness is strange to say the least.

It's not strange they have a case already in the system with McGahn's case, the ruling of the lower court sides with Congress and says McGahn has to testify and is not protected by executive privilege, its been appealed and the DC circuit court has it now, once they rule which ever side loses will appeal and it will go to SCOTUS......where I suspect the Trump fans are going to be disappointed when Gorsuch and Roberts side with the left judges to uphold the lower court....sadly this will take many months to work itself out and having 5 other cases out there for Bolton and Kupperman, Mulvaney etc was unnecessary....this one case will set the precedent.

The GOP wanted the Dems to go the route of subpoenas so that this would never play out in a trial before Nov 2020....the optics of voting to not have witnesses especially in light of the Bolton book leak is far more damaging to the GOP than you or they will admit.....heck even almost half of all Republicans polled said they saw a need for witnesses....
 
It's not strange they have a case already in the system with McGahn's case, the ruling of the lower court sides with Congress and says McGahn has to testify and is not protected by executive privilege, its been appealed and the DC circuit court has it now, once they rule which ever side loses will appeal and it will go to SCOTUS......where I suspect the Trump fans are going to be disappointed when Gorsuch and Roberts side with the left judges to uphold the lower court....sadly this will take many months to work itself out and having 5 other cases out there for Bolton and Kupperman, Mulvaney etc was unnecessary....this one case will set the precedent.

The GOP wanted the Dems to go the route of subpoenas so that this would never play out in a trial before Nov 2020....the optics of voting to not have witnesses especially in light of the Bolton book leak is far more damaging to the GOP than you or they will admit.....heck even almost half of all Republicans polled said they saw a need for witnesses....

They could have had Kupperman but withdrew the request. Also, courts can rule quickly, see below for legal precedent.

Not only has the House been curiously passive in seeking to force such testimony; it actually withdrew one of the few subpoenas facing a court ruling in the case of Charles Kupperman, Trump’s former deputy national security advisor. Kupperman was willing to testify and simply wanted court review, but the House strangely withdrew its request that he testify.

House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam B. Schiff has said that requesting courts to compel testimony would take too long. But courts can sometimes work quickly. In a critical case involving Richard Nixon’s impeachment, it took just three months to go from a ruling by the District Court to a final ruling of the Supreme Court. Nixon lost and then resigned.

Given the momentousness of impeachment, taking time to build a strong case is worth some delays. Moreover, courts have already agreed to decide other cases involving the president, including the challenge over whether Trump can be compelled to turn over tax and financial records. That puts the House in the awkward position of impeaching a president for obstruction before the Supreme Court rules on key issues.”
 
They could have had Kupperman but withdrew the request. Also, courts can rule quickly, see below for legal precedent.

Not only has the House been curiously passive in seeking to force such testimony; it actually withdrew one of the few subpoenas facing a court ruling in the case of Charles Kupperman, Trump’s former deputy national security advisor. Kupperman was willing to testify and simply wanted court review, but the House strangely withdrew its request that he testify.

House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam B. Schiff has said that requesting courts to compel testimony would take too long. But courts can sometimes work quickly. In a critical case involving Richard Nixon’s impeachment, it took just three months to go from a ruling by the District Court to a final ruling of the Supreme Court. Nixon lost and then resigned.

Given the momentousness of impeachment, taking time to build a strong case is worth some delays. Moreover, courts have already agreed to decide other cases involving the president, including the challenge over whether Trump can be compelled to turn over tax and financial records. That puts the House in the awkward position of impeaching a president for obstruction before the Supreme Court rules on key issues.”

The Houses case is strong, I know you don't see it and in time history will sort it all out and Trump will be remembered as one of if not the most corrupt/unlawful presidents ever. The WH would and will do everything they can to drag out and prolong the cases, see the McGahn case for example where the defense is constantly trying to drag it out.....so while it is possible it is also unlikely that the cases would move forward and certainly would not be finished in 3 months.....at best it would have been late spring into the summer.

Here is a article that has some good info

 
The Houses case is strong, I know you don't see it and in time history will sort it all out and Trump will be remembered as one of if not the most corrupt/unlawful presidents ever. The WH would and will do everything they can to drag out and prolong the cases, see the McGahn case for example where the defense is constantly trying to drag it out.....so while it is possible it is also unlikely that the cases would move forward and certainly would not be finished in 3 months.....at best it would have been late spring into the summer.

Here is a article that has some good info


You have presented your case. Others have presented theirs. Why cant you just accept the fact that the majority is against this sham, they are happy with Trump's results and let your fellow countrymen decide for themselves who they want in November? That's the way this country works my man no matter how hard headed, foolish and blind you think his supporters are. I would dare say most of us love and respect our constitution, you as well but its not going to end the way you want it to and its not your job to save anything or anybody from Donald Trump. His time will be up in November or 5 years from now on the will of the people because thats THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! If what you fear is socialist taking over then spend your time wisely explaining the pitfalls of why it wont work. So far you are just acting like the kid who cant get his way so he takes his ball and goes home.

Just my 2 cents
 
You have presented your case. Others have presented theirs. Why cant you just accept the fact that the majority is against this sham, they are happy with Trump's results and let your fellow countrymen decide for themselves who they want in November? That's the way this country works my man no matter how hard headed, foolish and blind you think his supporters are. I would dare say most of us love and respect our constitution, you as well but its not going to end the way you want it to and its not your job to save anything or anybody from Donald Trump. His time will be up in November or 5 years from now on the will of the people because thats THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! If what you fear is socialist taking over then spend your time wisely explaining the pitfalls of why it wont work. So far you are just acting like the kid who cant get his way so he takes his ball and goes home.

Just my 2 cents

Saying the majority is against this is a bit of a overstatement....and I guess we will see come Nov.....I do find it funny that a lot of people that supported removing Clinton are all let the "people" decide now.....they had no problem overturning the "people" when it came to Clinton.

I don't fear socialism taking over that is a fear mongering GOP talking point, even folks like Bernie if elected would be unable to pass the more radical socialist ideals he has....we would survive Bernie just as easily as we survive Trump. At this point we legit cant get Congress to pass almost anything...so I am pretty sure free everything for all would be dead on arrival....Biden will be the nominee though so don't lose to much sleep worrying about socialism.

What I really fear is the usurpation of power the executive branch is assuming under Trump and the precedents that it is setting....Trump wants to be king and he is slowly chipping away at the separation of power and the GOP senate and Barr ran DOJ is enabling that by protecting him, essentially the system of checks and balance is broken and the bar is being set very high for what a president can get away with....that is why I oppose Trump. 10 years from now when we look back on the Trump years and the story of what he did is fully told its not going to be pretty for the GOP. Again we are no longer Americans we are Republicans and Democrats and its disgusting....
 
Saying the majority is against this is a bit of a overstatement....and I guess we will see come Nov.....I do find it funny that a lot of people that supported removing Clinton are all let the "people" decide now.....they had no problem overturning the "people" when it came to Clinton.

I don't fear socialism taking over that is a fear mongering GOP talking point, even folks like Bernie if elected would be unable to pass the more radical socialist ideals he has....we would survive Bernie just as easily as we survive Trump. At this point we legit cant get Congress to pass almost anything...so I am pretty sure free everything for all would be dead on arrival....Biden will be the nominee though so don't lose to much sleep worrying about socialism.

What I really fear is the usurpation of power the executive branch is assuming under Trump and the precedents that it is setting....Trump wants to be king and he is slowly chipping away at the separation of power and the GOP senate and Barr ran DOJ is enabling that by protecting him, essentially the system of checks and balance is broken and the bar is being set very high for what a president can get away with....that is why I oppose Trump. 10 years from now when we look back on the Trump years and the story of what he did is fully told its not going to be pretty for the GOP. Again we are no longer Americans we are Republicans and Democrats and its disgusting....

We are no longer Americans but Republicans and Democrats? You speak for yourself on that buddy. Im pretty damn sure I am as American as it gets and Independent as it gets. I get what you want, checks and balances. Thats great. We all want that but the ridiculous "ckecks and balances" started Day 1 with this president. There has been a monumental effort to overturn his presidency from the onset. You think thats "American"? Its nothing more than being a sore loser.
 
We are no longer Americans but Republicans and Democrats? You speak for yourself on that buddy. Im pretty damn sure I am as American as it gets and Independent as it gets. I get what you want, checks and balances. Thats great. We all want that but the ridiculous "ckecks and balances" started Day 1 with this president. There has been a monumental effort to overturn his presidency from the onset. You think thats "American"? Its nothing more than being a sore loser.
You can't take every single criticism of Trump as being a sore loser. As I said I voted for him in 2016, but over the years I've come to realize he isn't a good person to be in power and I definitely would want him out. He's got a point about the political divide though that you're not seeing. Step outside of your bubble and have a look around. The longer people refuse to the worse our country's leaders are going to get and the more they'll get away with. I'm pretty sure the day 1 thing has been propaganda meant to rile up his base.
 
We are no longer Americans but Republicans and Democrats? You speak for yourself on that buddy. Im pretty damn sure I am as American as it gets and Independent as it gets. I get what you want, checks and balances. Thats great. We all want that but the ridiculous "ckecks and balances" started Day 1 with this president. There has been a monumental effort to overturn his presidency from the onset. You think thats "American"? Its nothing more than being a sore loser.

It would be different if Trump was not actually doing this stuff, but he is.....he makes it easy for the Dems to go after him.
 
You can't take every single criticism of Trump as being a sore loser. As I said I voted for him in 2016, but over the years I've come to realize he isn't a good person to be in power and I definitely would want him out. He's got a point about the political divide though that you're not seeing. Step outside of your bubble and have a look around. The longer people refuse to the worse our country's leaders are going to get and the more they'll get away with. I'm pretty sure the day 1 thing has been propaganda meant to rile up his base.

The Trump supporters are already rewriting or twisting the way his scandals have gone, take the Mueller report, there is plenty of evidence of OOJ in that report, enough that had the DOJ not ran interference Trump could easily have been impeached for it.....and with the McGahn situation still up in the air who knows it still might. Then the whole Russian collusion thing, they like to act like there was "no collusion" but that is not what Mueller said, Mueller stated that there was collusion but he could not prove that there was a conspiracy.....so saying no collusion is not accurate at all, there absolutely was collusion.....not one of them have seriously read the Mueller report.

Now we have this mountain of evidence that shows that Trump acted unethically and most likely illegally IRT to the aid and Ukraine, but hey lets not have anymore witnesses because getting to the truth of the issue is not what the GOP in interested in, even if its true it does not matter since them mean ole Dems have been after poor Trump from Day 1

I cant wait to see how they spin it when the House has Parnas and Bolton in open sessions over the next few months and they will have lots of corroborating evidence pointing to Trumps guilt but the Trump folks will pretend its all heresy or say without a tape of Trump saying it out loud it cant be true or whatever....
 
Lol there’s 0 evidence from Bolton’s manuscript and statements he’s said that would indicate he has anything on Trump. This entire process is politically motivated and part of the campaign started 3 years ago to oust Trump. First it was Russia and when that failed then Ukraine. I have no doubt the democrats will try one more time right before the election out of desperation. The House has a key witness who could testify btw but they withdrew their request. Turley noted how incredibly strange that was. The House did a incredibly poor job, legal scholars have made that strikingly clear, and there’s probably a reason they were so sloppy too (as in no real case/evidence, just hate for trump and to appease their base by saying they impeached him).

Regarding getting the truth, I see 0 reason for additional witnesses to drag this out. The Ukrainian president said no pressure, Sondland and the other star witness said no quid pro quo, and the alleged crime never even occurred. Bolton’s manuscript leak didn’t tell us anything new or warrant concern. I simply don’t see anything worthy of dragging this out any longer and there is nothing to suggest Trump acted illegally. Trump should be acquitted tomorrow and rightfully so based on the lazy, sloppy case presented by the democrats. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

Read some of the other stuff I posted today regarding Trumps defense team, specifically what Dershowitz said. His statement was ripped out of context and he later clarified the context and thrust of his argument. It’s worth reading up on because all the main news outlets missed the point of his argument completely and mischaracterized it.
It was absolutely not mischaracterized. I listens to the proceedings live.
 
You can't take every single criticism of Trump as being a sore loser. As I said I voted for him in 2016, but over the years I've come to realize he isn't a good person to be in power and I definitely would want him out. He's got a point about the political divide though that you're not seeing. Step outside of your bubble and have a look around. The longer people refuse to the worse our country's leaders are going to get and the more they'll get away with. I'm pretty sure the day 1 thing has been propaganda meant to rile up his base.

Im sorry but you can't point to a single thing that I believe I should be concerned about. Because he wanted the Biden's investigated? That's what I should be concerned about? I spent my entire adulthood under a command leadership. I have a good grasp and what I should and shouldn't be concerned about (not saying you don't). You have people here mentioning the words king and dictator and that is just foolish. You can't determine a person's leadership qualities based on whether or not they are an arrogant A-Hole. I would rather he do things different but im not going to punish him for being who he is and I always knew he was. Its effective for him and always has been

There hasn't been any new precedent created here under Trump other than the fact that you finally have somebody willing to stand up for you. The problem that some of you have in my opinion is that you wish he was nice about it. I don't think nice works when dealing with this era of Democrats. Is Trump a bully? Sure he is but when you are dealing with other bullies you better be the Alpha of the group. John McCain and Mitt Romney found out the hard way that being nice equals defeat
 
The Trump supporters are already rewriting or twisting the way his scandals have gone, take the Mueller report, there is plenty of evidence of OOJ in that report, enough that had the DOJ not ran interference Trump could easily have been impeached for it.....and with the McGahn situation still up in the air who knows it still might. Then the whole Russian collusion thing, they like to act like there was "no collusion" but that is not what Mueller said, Mueller stated that there was collusion but he could not prove that there was a conspiracy.....so saying no collusion is not accurate at all, there absolutely was collusion.....not one of them have seriously read the Mueller report.

Now we have this mountain of evidence that shows that Trump acted unethically and most likely illegally IRT to the aid and Ukraine, but hey lets not have anymore witnesses because getting to the truth of the issue is not what the GOP in interested in, even if its true it does not matter since them mean ole Dems have been after poor Trump from Day 1

I cant wait to see how they spin it when the House has Parnas and Bolton in open sessions over the next few months and they will have lots of corroborating evidence pointing to Trumps guilt but the Trump folks will pretend its all heresy or say without a tape of Trump saying it out loud it cant be true or whatever....

It sounds like trump supporters are your real problem and that's an easy fix. Break free. None of us owes the other a thing.....
 
The voters will get to decide in 2020 on this issue no matter what the GOP does tomorrow. I also wouldn't be surprised if we get a last minute "Jeff Flake" type of surprise but also wouldn't be surprised if it ends in a 50-50 tie.

I'm thinking we get a majority acquittal either late tonight or tomorrow
 
They could have had Kupperman but withdrew the request. Also, courts can rule quickly, see below for legal precedent.

Not only has the House been curiously passive in seeking to force such testimony; it actually withdrew one of the few subpoenas facing a court ruling in the case of Charles Kupperman, Trump’s former deputy national security advisor. Kupperman was willing to testify and simply wanted court review, but the House strangely withdrew its request that he testify.

House Intelligence Committee Chair Adam B. Schiff has said that requesting courts to compel testimony would take too long. But courts can sometimes work quickly. In a critical case involving Richard Nixon’s impeachment, it took just three months to go from a ruling by the District Court to a final ruling of the Supreme Court. Nixon lost and then resigned.

Given the momentousness of impeachment, taking time to build a strong case is worth some delays. Moreover, courts have already agreed to decide other cases involving the president, including the challenge over whether Trump can be compelled to turn over tax and financial records. That puts the House in the awkward position of impeaching a president for obstruction before the Supreme Court rules on key issues.”

Just makes you scratch your head and say, HHHHMMMMM...Sounds like they know they're defeated and don't have much to stand on
 
Lamar Alexander sums it up well. The house proved their case but so what.

Proved it to who? Legal scholars galore have weighed in on this. There is disagreement all over the board. The Senators will decide. Some people wont be happy. When we all move on from this the American people will decide in November as it should be
 
And Adam Schiff is still a tremendous LIAR...Wonder if he would have told as many if he had been under oath??? I really believe he has some mental issues
 
The Houses case is strong, I know you don't see it and in time history will sort it all out and Trump will be remembered as one of if not the most corrupt/unlawful presidents ever. The WH would and will do everything they can to drag out and prolong the cases, see the McGahn case for example where the defense is constantly trying to drag it out.....so while it is possible it is also unlikely that the cases would move forward and certainly would not be finished in 3 months.....at best it would have been late spring into the summer.

Here is a article that has some good info


The House case simply is not strong. A case based entirely on speculation, key witnesses stating no quid pro quo and no criminal activity that they had evidence of, is not a strong case. The case is predicated on making a variety of assumptions to conclude that Trump must be guilty. In a court of law the evidence presented by the Democrats would be thrown out, below are a few reasons why from a legal standpoint it doesn't hold weight.

"[In] an argumentative objection, the questioner (attorney or self-represented party) is likely trying to offer a conclusion of what the evidence means rather than simply asking for the facts of what actually happened."

"Speculation is a legal basis for objecting to witness testimony on grounds similar to the argumentative objection — because the evidence is not considered reliable or factual. A witness' testimony is limited to their personal knowledge of events (estimating is allowed, but most opinions are not). Speculating is even worse. It's akin to guessing — and it's not permitted.

We certainly wouldn't want a jury to decide a case based upon someone's guess. That's a primary reason we have rules of evidence: to establish a fair trial that is based on facts, not speculation. Learn more about rules of evidence (the backbone of evidentiary objections).

"Hearsay is one of the least understood concepts of evidence law in the United States. Most people don't realize that the term “hearsay” covers a much broader range of statements than just words. In fact, many (even most) statements made in everyday life would fit the definition of hearsay and be inadmissible in court — unless they fall under an exclusion or exception to the hearsay rule." Source

Now let's go one step further. Even IF you ignore the rules for how things work in a court of law you have the testimony from the key witnesses stating there was no quid pro quo and no criminal activity. They did a lot of speculating and inferring and assuming that there may have been but they had 0 evidence for such. The "mountain of evidence" the democrats have is also a mountain of things that do not prove guilt; one can certainly assume it but it does not prove it. The Senate should acquit Trump today and rightfully so based on the evidence presented. If the House wants to go back and try to build a case not based on these false premises then by all means they should do that and try to get key witnesses to testify even if it gets stuck in the court system. However at this time the evidence presented is laughably weak and as I've shown it doesn't hold up in a court of law and various legal scholars have also agreed how weak the case is.
 
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