Misc All Things Religious

[Iceagewhereartthou]

Well I think it was his words just contradicted but ok Ill by that I guess. If it's the world that thinks that way they are 100% on the right path. It's extremely offensive and yes millions have been killed over Religion. The problem here is the church and it always has been. Maybe your local church is different but the powers that be throughout history are the most corrupt people on this planet and always have been. Jesus actually pointed this out multiple times before they nailed him to the cross......

Several in this thread have talked about being "offended" and also "being judged." I am fascinated but confused when people, especially atheists, talk about that (I know you are not an atheist but that is usually where this comes up). Why would an atheist be offended if someone thinks they are going to hell? If the atheist is right, and there is no hell, then why would it matter what someone else thinks. And isn't the atheist making a judgement to say the Christian is being judgemental?

It seems to always boil down to the same issue. "I want to do what I want to do, and no one better tell me I can't or that it's wrong." "I want to be my own standard of right and wrong and not feel judged for it." This is really the heart of the issue; people wanting to be their own moral compass and have it their own way... this is what pride is all about. So I suppose Jesus saying this is not the healthy and proper way to live offends a lot of people? Yeah, people don't like being told they don't get to make all the rules for themselves and do everything they want to do. Christians don't like it, atheists don't like it, religious people don't like it, rulers don't like it, kids don't like it... pride truly is one of the most difficult of human traits to navigate. I mean, many of the cultural arguments of our day are about this exact same issue. So from this perspective I guess what Jesus said could offend just about anyone, including the Jews, the Pharisees, the priests, and the common people of his time. Maybe it's not always about me, what I want, what I think is ok, and what makes me happy (or any of us). Maybe, if God exists, maybe, He has a much better and truer perspective about what is healthy, true, moral, and fair than I or we do. Might that reality make us feel offended, judged, guilty, or even afraid? Sure. Maybe we should at least pay attention to those emotions rather than just lashing out at other people because we don't like what they say. Are these emotions the reason we should say we are following God or strive to get to know Him better? Probably not. As stated there are much more meaningful and wonderful ways to get to know God; like joy, love, relationship, ultimate meaning, etc.

Maybe Jesus and God are real and maybe they aren't. I think the evidence is that they are, maybe other's don't think so. If they aren't then none of this world really matters either way and we are just living out our blind lives for the blink of time we are here and then that won't matter when the world ends. If they aren't there is no right or wrong, no good or evil, no fair or unfair; just opinion and preference. If they are then things absolutely do matter. If they are then the very issues people often reject God for; fairness, morality, justice, good and evil; actually exist and matter. If they are then we all have choices to make about how we live our lives... choices that do matter.

 

[Sandbar]

I know you're not trying to be a smarta$$. I am just trying to make a point that if you're going to continue to reference killing people as a source of guilt or as a source/framework for how you think about things like sin, forgiveness, deserving of hell vs heaven or whatever, it would be a really good idea to know whether or not it carries the monumental importance you think it does. If it does carry that level of importance, then the question is why? Who or what elevates it to that level of importance? Because if it's just your feelings or my feelings, then we're in big trouble, because we don't have much authority of anything beyond our own selves, much less universal morality or judgment. We might as well just play tiddlywinks for the answers.

RC I am just trying to put you in the place I was in that's all. There is no way you can relate and I know that just trying to present to you and others that killing another human changes you as a person. There is no scripture or chaplain that makes you feel better trust me. I don't really know at what level you guys think any sin is but swiping a pack of rubbers at the qwik mart isn't the same thing as killing another of god's children. Both sins......not the same at least not to me. I had to work through it and I did thankfully just not the way many of you wish I had

 

[Sandbar]

Our Pastor is not a "Good Ole Boy". He is a well studied and knowledgeable person. He consistently preaches against fear mongering, name it and claim it, and guilting type of preachers and constantly preaches the Gospel of Jesus.

Killing someone in war is not murder. Because we live in a fallen world where sin (satan) exists, there will always be wars. Even Jesus spoke of Government and said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's. That did not only refer to taxes but defense of country. There is evil in this world and we can defend ourselves and others. Murdering someone our of malice, anger, greed, etc. is different.

The ultimate sin is not murder, but "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" is.

By the way, I respect and thank you immensely for your Service and sacrifice. My Father and Grandfather ARE Marines. My Father still living, my Grandfather deceased, but will Always be Marines.

I'm glad you have a great pastor but I have given my thoughts on those far above them and that will never change. I just answered the stuff on murder so no need to type it out again

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

My point being the corruption began Day 1. That's when the fear began too. Unfortunately they throw that book at you to do the scaring which is a shame because it's got a lot of great information about Jesus the teacher. Its too bad they dirtied up his true message which is why I seperated from that part of it

Yes Jesus message has always been love. The church and the clergy however is a different story. They are the ones who push fear. Your pastor is probably a good ole boy who delivers the message. Those far above him is where the true evil lies......

As far as sin goes this is where we divide. I killed close to 80 children of god give or take a bakers dozen during my 20+ years service. That's the ultimate sin x 80+ and that's not including the daily sins we all partake in. Where do you think that puts me? Just ask to be foregiven after every trigger pull? I got tired of being told by the platoon chaplain to just put my worries in gods hands because of whatever scripture he mouthed after that and that's where the final transformation actually began.

I am just asking because I want to better understand where you are coming from. So you used to consider yourself a Christian and tried to follow the Bible but because of your war experiences you were no longer able to reconcile what you did in the military with what the Bible says? This is what led you to "drop the labels" and leave the "traditional" view of Christianity?

 

[LickWx]

It's not a sin when it's during wartime. Jesus was not some meek and mild pacifist like some people like to say.

Wartime? Is every war equal? Nazi chirstian germans vs Christian Americans? Same outcome same right to kill? What about Palestinian Christian’s attacking Israel? Russian Christian’s vs Ukraine?


You don opened a can of worms here with this…. joining the military is a conscious decision not forced. So then are all wars the same? Do you get judged since you chose to go to war?

 

[Bham 99]

Wartime? Is every war equal? Nazi chirstian germans vs Christian Americans? Same outcome same right to kill? What about Palestinian Christian’s attacking Israel? Russian Christian’s vs Ukraine?


You don opened a can of worms here with this…. joining the military is a conscious decision not forced. So then are all wars the same? Do you get judged since you chose to go to war?

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy which gives much freedom to not be judging ourselves based on feelings, which anything else is just weakening what Jesus did for man. That's all I'm going to say to that.

 

[LickWx]

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy which gives much freedom to not be judging ourselves based on feelings, which anything else is just weakening what Jesus did for man. That's all I'm going to say to that.

That is some dangerous logic as it implies you can use religion to justify war. After all, killing is a forgivable sin, so as long as I believe in Jesus why don’t I kill to meet my aims? Why don’t I make hell on earth, after all I’m going to heaven because I believe in Jesus. I can do no wrong

 

[Sandbar]

I am just asking because I want to better understand where you are coming from. So you used to consider yourself a Christian and tried to follow the Bible but because of your war experiences you were no longer able to reconcile what you did in the military with what the Bible says? This is what led you to "drop the labels" and leave the "traditional" view of Christianity?

This conversation as most do has gone in 10 different directions. If you want to know my story and how I got here go back and look at old post it's all in there. The war part is just 1 grain of sand in a large bucket of sand it just got mixed in

In short my transformation started when I got treatment for my PTSD at a plant medicine retreat in Mexico. A lot of my Seal buddies and ex teammates are utilizing this retreat to heal themselves and many are like myself, opening up to a more spiritual path and leaving religion behind. It's not about war to us it's about a very profound spiritual journey that you take with this plant medicine called ego death which is the first step people experience in a near death experience. There is no way to accurately explain it. I believe I put a link up on one of the back pages from a gentlemen that has done 5-meo-DMT and he gives a phenomenal description of the experience and how it changes you. I encourage you to watch even if it's just for knowledge

 

[Arcc]

That is some dangerous logic as it implies you can use religion to justify war. After all, killing is a forgivable sin, so as long as I believe in Jesus why don’t I kill to meet my aims? Why don’t I make hell on earth, after all I’m going to heaven because I believe in Jesus. I can do no wrong

Anyone to use that “dangerous logic” doesn’t need to use Christianity to justify it. Remove religion; insert whatever you want.

 

[Bham 99]

That is some dangerous logic as it implies you can use religion to justify war. After all, killing is a forgivable sin, so as long as I believe in Jesus why don’t I kill to meet my aims? Why don’t I make hell on earth, after all I’m going to heaven because I believe in Jesus. I can do no wrong

No it's not dangerous when you don't have the mindset of thinking that you have to be perfect to reach God. That's the difference in Christianity and other religions. Every other religion is being good so God favors you. In that aspect Christianity is very disruptive to the flow of things and human wisdom.

 

[WSW]

No it's not dangerous when you don't have the mindset of thinking that you have to be perfect to reach God. That's the difference in Christianity and other religions. Every other religion is being good so God favors you. In that aspect Christianity is very disruptive to the flow of things and human wisdom.

Not directly related, but i was reading up on what Mormons believe the other day. I did not realize how truly different this is from traditional Christianity. They also do not believe in the Holy Trinity and accept other books besides the Holy Bible in their canon, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

7. View of salvation. The goal of Mormon salvation is not about escaping wrath as much as it is about maximizing our growth and ensuring our happiness. Salvation is finding our way back to God the Father and recalling our forgotten first estate as his premortal spirit children.
Mormon theology teaches that we cannot receive an eternal reward by our own unaided efforts. In some respects, salvation is based on what we have earned, but what we earn is by grace. How this plays out in Mormon life may differ from person to person, but they stress that the gift of the Holy Ghost is conditional upon continued obedience. Mormons must keep the First Principles and Ordinances, which consist of the Ten Commandments, tithing, chastity, and the “Word of Wisdom” which prohibits tobacco, coffee, tea, alcohol, and illegal narcotics.

 

[RoddyPiper]

That is some dangerous logic as it implies you can use religion to justify war. After all, killing is a forgivable sin, so as long as I believe in Jesus why don’t I kill to meet my aims? Why don’t I make hell on earth, after all I’m going to heaven because I believe in Jesus. I can do no wrong

Nothing but an inflammatory baiting troll post.

 

[LickWx]

Nothing but an inflammatory baiting troll post.

No, it really isn’t. Everyone here has been engaging in discussion just fine . You can handle some challenge right? Bham and the rest have been just fine and we have been talking just fine with respect

 

[WSW]

No, it really isn’t. Everyone here has been engaging in discussion just fine . You can handle some challenge right? Bham and the rest have been just fine and we have been talking just fine with respect

Good post. But i still wish we had a nice nor'easter to talk about! And not rain!

 

[Bham 99]

Not directly related, but i was reading up on what Mormons believe the other day. I did not realize how truly different this is from traditional Christianity. They also do not believe in the Holy Trinity and accept other books besides the Holy Bible in their canon, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

7. View of salvation. The goal of Mormon salvation is not about escaping wrath as much as it is about maximizing our growth and ensuring our happiness. Salvation is finding our way back to God the Father and recalling our forgotten first estate as his premortal spirit children.
Mormon theology teaches that we cannot receive an eternal reward by our own unaided efforts. In some respects, salvation is based on what we have earned, but what we earn is by grace. How this plays out in Mormon life may differ from person to person, but they stress that the gift of the Holy Ghost is conditional upon continued obedience. Mormons must keep the First Principles and Ordinances, which consist of the Ten Commandments, tithing, chastity, and the “Word of Wisdom” which prohibits tobacco, coffee, tea, alcohol, and illegal narcotics.

Yeah I had some friends in high school that were Mormon brothers and it is very different. I even went to church with them once. Very interesting history on the church and how things came about.

 

[RoddyPiper]

That is some dangerous logic as it implies you can use religion to justify war. After all, killing is a forgivable sin, so as long as I believe in Jesus why don’t I kill to meet my aims? Why don’t I make hell on earth, after all I’m going to heaven because I believe in Jesus. I can do no wrong

Ok. I will take the bait....

Yes, killing is a forgivable sin if you are truly convicted that it was wrong. Believing in Jesus and being saved are 2 different things. The religion of Islam believes in Jesus, but aren't saved. Being a Christian isn't a scapegoat to do whatever you want....if that is your mindset, you aren't a Christian. No, unless you confess to the Lord that you are a sinner and that you want salvation through the blood of the cross, you aren't going to Heaven. None of that is my opinion, it is fact based on the Word of God, something you have no argument against.

 

[WSW]

Yeah I had some friends in high school that were Mormon brothers and it is very different. I even went to church with them once. Very interesting history on the church and how things came about.

I remember when i lived near Charleston that people there used to call it a cult.

 

[Bham 99]

I remember when i lived near Charleston that people there used to call it a cult.

That's what I've heard as well. They do believe in Jesus that died for their sins. Just a bunch of other stuff as well though. Most of them are salt of the Earth type people though.

 

[WSW]

That's what I've heard as well. They do believe in Jesus that died for their sins. Just a bunch of other stuff as well though. Most of them are salt of the Earth type people though.

Usually very good people. They do believe basically that Jesus' death on the cross was salvation for everyone.

 

[Iceagewhereartthou]

This conversation as most do has gone in 10 different directions. If you want to know my story and how I got here go back and look at old post it's all in there. The war part is just 1 grain of sand in a large bucket of sand it just got mixed in

In short my transformation started when I got treatment for my PTSD at a plant medicine retreat in Mexico. A lot of my Seal buddies and ex teammates are utilizing this retreat to heal themselves and many are like myself, opening up to a more spiritual path and leaving religion behind. It's not about war to us it's about a very profound spiritual journey that you take with this plant medicine called ego death which is the first step people experience in a near death experience. There is no way to accurately explain it. I believe I put a link up on one of the back pages from a gentlemen that has done 5-meo-DMT and he gives a phenomenal description of the experience and how it changes you. I encourage you to watch even if it's just for knowledge

Yes, I remember those posts. Based on your war comments, I interpreted it that maybe that was what led more directly to your turning away from your previous path, which is why I asked. The war question is very complex and there are whole books on that topic as it relates to Christians and the Bible. Unfortunately, war is a reality in a world with fallen and sinful humans. It is never a "good" thing, but sometimes it may be necessary or even just. Murder is a sin, but not all killing is a sin. I would say that killing is never "good" but sometimes is necessary; such as in situations of self-defense or some war times.

We see this in the Old Testament, for example when the Isrealites are called to kill the Canaanites. It was not a "good thing" but the Canaanites were doing some very terrible practices for hundreds of years and would not turn away. Beastiality, prostitution, murder, greed, and child sacrifice (to idols) to name a few. God basically "judged" the Canaanites with a war against them for their terrible actions. Is it fun, neat, and clean? No. Does it make some people uncomfortable to read that God would call for people to be killed? Sure. But God did so justly; when we murder we do so unjustly. God has the ability to take any of us out of this world at any time; it is not "murder" for Him because He is the eternal being, not a created being with no ability to give life. If Christianity is true, we don't really die when when our physical bodies die, we just change locations. People are not given the right to do that to another person without just cause (ie, self defense, certain war times, etc) but God is not one of us. Sometimes in these terrible Earthly events, "innocent" people die, like kids. Never a good thing, but unfortunately, other people often end up paying for the sins of those around them. God is just and those kids that die on Earth will be where they should in eternity. What that looks like for you and your military deeds I cannot say, that is between you and God. But I believe God is just and knows what is fair and right.