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Ukraine

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metwannabe said:
Sickening if true, again so much information/misinformation out there. Video in comments supposedly shows the victims, so warning if you click link and read through it but war is hell, especially with Russian forces

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The amount of parallels to WW2 and the Germans is staggering. These exact types of things were happening in the same place 80 years ago.
 
A lot of times they delay fuse some of these on purpose to injure first responders and troops......so I would be super nervous standing anywhere near one

 
The video that Zelensky showed in his speech to the US was graphic and hard to watch. The emotional/compassionate side of me says do what he asks and close off the skies above Ukraine. The analytical/logical side says this is could have severe consequences to our country and NATO allies.
 
ghost1 said:
The video that Zelensky showed in his speech to the US was graphic and hard to watch. The emotional/compassionate side of me says do what he asks and close off the skies above Ukraine. The analytical/logical side says this is could have severe consequences to our country and NATO allies.
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I couldn't have said that any better. Sums up exactly how I feel.
 
NoSnowATL said:
Sucks watching a nation get ------ while the world watches. Again I understand the WHYs and IFs but I still feel like ---- about itS
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Totally agree. I understand the why's and if's as well, as long as it's accurate, it's complex I get it but watching thousands die needlessly is insane and knowing a dictator can say "hey give us this piece of land, stay out of NATO and your people live" shouldn't be tolerated.
 
metwannabe said:
Something seems odd to me about this whole situation, to be in talks with Russia for a peace deal while simultaneously asking the US to take actions that would almost assuredly lead to WWIII.
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Craziness war I’ve ever seen. Russia is weak right now. If I was Jessy I would say it’s a good time to take them out. But I’m not Jessy.
 
metwannabe said:
Something seems odd to me about this whole situation, to be in talks with Russia for a peace deal while simultaneously asking the US to take actions that would almost assuredly lead to WWIII.
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Its actually brilliant though, cause the message sent is, we hope for peace but if it does not work out we are prepared to keep at it and we want to secure as much foreign assistance as possible IE we are not going to quit or give up.

Russia is losing, and they know it, that's why they are talking, they are desperate to get something out of this though to prevent it from looking like a massive failure. Zelensky wants them to know that Ukraine is never going to surrender one inch of territory and that they are doing the things they need to do to secure the ability to make good on that.
 
Since we're talking about Russia here, I know this won't happen, but I feel like something like this would be fair...

- Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, but they're allowed to join the EU.

- Disband the Azov battalion. While Ukraine isn't "filled with Nazis", the thing that is true here, is Azov is a right-wing extremist part of their military (look it up).

- Allow the Donbas to vote if whether they want to stay in Ukraine or be annexed (edit: with it being a "fair" election).

The thing that's kinda sad is if they simply allowed the Donbas to vote on this instead of taking this action, Russia may have gotten what they wished for. They'll never vote yes now.
 
metwannabe said:
Something seems odd to me about this whole situation, to be in talks with Russia for a peace deal while simultaneously asking the US to take actions that would almost assuredly lead to WWIII.
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Not really. You're still at war until an agreement is reached. Russia was bombing civilians after saying they agreed to a ceasefire to let civilians evacuate. No need at all to take your guard down until you see the @$$end of Russians heading back across that border.
 
GeorgiaGirl said:
Since we're talking about Russia here, I know this won't happen, but I feel like something like this would be fair...

- Ukraine agrees to not join NATO, but they're allowed to join the EU.

- Disband the Azov battalion. While Ukraine isn't "filled with Nazis", the thing that is true here, is Azov is a right-wing extremist part of their military (look it up).

- Allow the Donbas to vote if whether they want to stay in Ukraine or be annexed (edit: with it being a "fair" election).

The thing that's kinda sad is if they simply allowed the Donbas to vote on this instead of taking this action, Russia may have gotten what they wished for. They'll never vote yes now.
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They did back in 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums
 
Poimen said:
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BlueRidgeFolklore said:
Not really. You're still at war until an agreement is reached. Russia was bombing civilians after saying they agreed to a ceasefire to let civilians evacuate. No need at all to take your guard down until you see the @$$end of Russians heading back across that border.
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Nobody is asking him to take his guard down but he has to know by now, everyone else in the world seems too, that enforcing a no-fly zone that means literally requiring attacks on Russia military, means WWIII.
 
metwannabe said:
Nobody is asking him to take his guard down but he has to know by now, everyone else in the world seems too, that enforcing a no-fly zone that means literally requiring attacks on Russia military, means WWIII.
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He's already in a war, he doesn't give a damn about how the west perceives his requests. His job is Ukraine. Sure the U.S. has their reasons to not entertain said requests BUT again, until he see the a$$end of Russians heading back to Russia, he's going to attempt to arm Ukraine to the teeth.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
He's already in a war, he doesn't give a damn about how the west perceives his requests. His job is Ukraine. Sure the U.S. has their reasons to not entertain said requests BUT again, until he see the a$$end of Russians heading back to Russia, he's going to attempt to arm Ukraine to the teeth.
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I get that trust me, all I said it just seems odd to keep asking for something you know could easily lead to WWIII. There are other options, heck a part of me wants to bomb them back to the Kremlin but I also know it could be disastrous, its complex situation to say the least.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
He's already in a war, he doesn't give a damn about how the west perceives his requests. His job is Ukraine. Sure the U.S. has their reasons to not entertain said requests BUT again, until he see the a$$end of Russians heading back to Russia, he's going to attempt to arm Ukraine to the teeth.
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Like I said up thread its about sending messages, the Ukrainian negotiators in these meetings are saying we plan on never giving up, but there has to be something to convince Putin that there is no end game where they get to occupy any part of Ukraine outside of Crimea and parts of Donbas at best. One way to do that is for the president of the Ukraine to go before the nations of NATO and plead his case for help, it builds moral at home, and it lets Putin know how serious Ukraine is and that there is limits to what he should expect with a ceasefire and that if they come to the table with occupation etc it wont fly. Zelensky is also like you said showing that a disarmed Ukraine is never going to happen, and they are in it for the long haul and will never give up. In the end what does Zelensky and the Ukraine really have to lose at this point.
 
Downeastnc said:
Like I said up thread its about sending messages, the Ukrainian negotiators in these meetings are saying we plan on never giving up, but there has to be something to convince Putin that there is no end game where they get to occupy any part of Ukraine outside of Crimea and parts of Donbas at best. One way to do that is for the president of the Ukraine to go before the nations of NATO and plead his case for help, it builds moral at home, and it lets Putin know how serious Ukraine is and that there is limits to what he should expect with a ceasefire and that if they come to the table with occupation etc it wont fly. Zelensky is also like you said showing that a disarmed Ukraine is never going to happen, and they are in it for the long haul and will never give up. In the end what does Zelensky and the Ukraine really have to lose at this point.
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There is no doubt that a lot of posturing is happening but we cannot expect Zelensky to care about world war when he's already fighting the enemy. I understand why we as Americans should want him to care, I totally get that, but I also understand why he doesn't.

Ukraine and Zelensky have nothing to lose as you said. He knows the West is playing the long game, hoping to stay relatively neutral in participation while believing that sanctions ultimately strangle Russia into submission. However, he also knows that as each day passes where Russia doesn't retreat, that the West is closer to ultimately having to choose sides.
 
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