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Ukraine

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lexxnchloe said:
I remain shocked at so many people falling in line with the totally one-sided coverage. If only we attacked Russia. Yea, nothing possibly could go wrong. Our invasion of Iraq was every bit as wrong as Putin's is now. Lets say Russia was Iraq's ally then. How would you feel if Russians decided to wipe out a US military column? Very few things in life or black/white, 100%/0%. I think Putin's demand to keep Ukraine out of NATO was reasonable. His response was unreasonable but when the media is 100% in lockstep cheerleading for war i personally think they are pigs. Alot of people would be alive today had we just told Putin Ukraine will be considered a neutral non-aligned country similar to Sweden or Switzerland in WW2.

The consensus back in 2003 for invading Iraq led us to disaster. Hillary Clinton was one of the warmongers, like she is now.

interesting speech from Hillary. She made it based on a war drumbeat that was deafening and totally one-sided and wrong. Listen to what she says. Everything is either an outright lie or just plain wrong. Yes, im just picking her out because she is a leading warmonger now. Bush was a monster as well. How many Americans died because of her vote? How many Americans in wheelchairs, with artificial limbs, disfigured faces? And we found out later the media and political drumbeat for war was 100% wrong. Oh, and lets not even talk about all the dead Iraqi's for nothing. So, please excuse me for not joining in the chorus for war and death. I pass. So follow Hillary and the warmongering republican neocons. I will not.


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I wasn’t advocating. I was just expressing the regret that we are unable to help.
 
Downeastnc said:
I imagine at some point the UN or NATO will try to fly in food/medicine etc to Kyiv and other cities that are effectively cut off if the war persist. If Russia downs/threatens those flights then I could see no fly zones established and US/NATO aircraft escorting relief flights.
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Yes, and all that is a critical unknown as to how this could play out. What happens if US/NATO decided to airlift humanitarian aid directly to Ukrainians under siege? (kinda like Berlin 48)

That would put Russia in quite a position wouldn't it? If they let that happen, they look weak and it hurts their position, but shooting it down?? That risks possible escalation with NATO...

And let's say Russia did shoot it down? Does NATO just let it go, or risk looking weak...

At this point, I'm asking these as more rhetorical questions--just going through some scenarios here. We're not there yet, but that is where the real clash with Russia could come. My feeling is that both sides are going to have some very, VERY tough decisions to make very soon (some are being made already). We should also expect NATO to continue pushing the boundaries between indirect vs direct support.
 
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lexxnchloe said:
few things in life or black/white, 100%/0%. I think Putin's demand to keep Ukraine out of NATO was reasonable. His response was unreasonable but when the media is 100% in lockstep cheerleading for war i personally think they are pigs.
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Putin had been building forces on the Ukrainian border for over a year, while the world was preoccupied by COVID, long before any Western media was calling for war or covering Ukraine's NATO quest. You're posturing all of this as Putin being backed into corner when in reality, he was the aggressor. Go back to March of last year, when EUCOM raised it's watch level for Ukraine from possible crisis to potential imminent crisis, the highest level, when it was estimated that Russia had amassed 100,000 troops at Ukraine's border over the previous months.

I'd be willing to wage that 90% of Americans had no clue this even happened.

 
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lexxnchloe said:
I remain shocked at so many people falling in line with the totally one-sided coverage. If only we attacked Russia. Yea, nothing possibly could go wrong. Our invasion of Iraq was every bit as wrong as Putin's is now. Lets say Russia was Iraq's ally then. How would you feel if Russians decided to wipe out a US military column? Very few things in life or black/white, 100%/0%. I think Putin's demand to keep Ukraine out of NATO was reasonable. His response was unreasonable but when the media is 100% in lockstep cheerleading for war i personally think they are pigs. Alot of people would be alive today had we just told Putin Ukraine will be considered a neutral non-aligned country similar to Sweden or Switzerland in WW2.

The consensus back in 2003 for invading Iraq led us to disaster. Hillary Clinton was one of the warmongers, like she is now.

interesting speech from Hillary. She made it based on a war drumbeat that was deafening and totally one-sided and wrong. Listen to what she says. Everything is either an outright lie or just plain wrong. Yes, im just picking her out because she is a leading warmonger now. Bush was a monster as well. How many Americans died because of her vote? How many Americans in wheelchairs, with artificial limbs, disfigured faces? And we found out later the media and political drumbeat for war was 100% wrong. Oh, and lets not even talk about all the dead Iraqi's for nothing. So, please excuse me for not joining in the chorus for war and death. I pass. So follow Hillary and the warmongering republican neocons. I will not.


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We evaluate way too many things through the lens of our media and political leaders...entities that have demonstrated their corruption and bias year after year after year. We have strong opinions one way or the other around directly helping Ukraine or not, but we don't seem to have the same passion about the myriad other situations where genocide is occurring or where non-televised countries operating in other countries are doing damage to people, economy, and infrastructure.
 
Claycochaser said:
Because we told them that NATO wouldn't expand one inch to the East when Gorbachev agreed to allow German reunification...among other things.
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That is false. Gorbachev himself said the discussion of NATO expansion was never discussed or legally encoded and that which was discussed, was the expansion of NATO's military forces into territories of the GDR (East Germany).

The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
 
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Rain Cold said:
We evaluate way too many things through the lens of our media and political leaders...entities that have demonstrated their corruption and bias year after year after year. We have strong opinions one way or the other around directly helping Ukraine or not, but we don't seem to have the same passion about the myriad other situations where genocide is occurring or where non-televised countries operating in other countries are doing damage to people, economy, and infrastructure.
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Concur.
The only caveat, respectfully, is this situation has the potential to envelop the world ... and hence perhaps the heightened passion.
 
I'll be blunt. We shouldn't get directly involved in Ukraine because of the threat of escalation globally. Instead, we should do everything we can to indirectly support them.

Iraq 2 was a completely different geopolitical situation with much different dynamics, and I strongly caution trying to apply that scenario to this one.
 
Cold Miser said:
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This is the point I have been making the last few days. They (Ukraine) will fight until the last drop of blood is spilled. In ways it is Afghanistan all over again for Russia only a lot more players in a more dangerous environment.......The cost in lives, economy and public opinion make this move by Putin a huge mistake.
 
severestorm said:
Maiden Square. After this war, this and Vilnius are my top destinations to visit.

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Hopefully, we’ll still be able to visit there and it won’t be behind a new iron curtain.

I had a chance to visit St. Petersburg back in 2017, and wanted to explore more of Russia, but after all this I’m not sure I’ll have another opportunity any time soon, if ever. Sad. My father did have a chance to visit the USSR on a school trip in the late 1970s (he studied Russian language during high school), so I suppose you never know, though.

Eastern Europe in general is somewhere I need to get to more. Only been to Talinn and St. Petersburg briefly.

Don’t mean to make this about me, as this is a serious affair. Just adding a personal touch to it.
 
severestorm said:
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For years, Russia has straddled the line between a broken democracy and an outright dictatorship, but this crisis has shown that the line has been crossed towards a dictatorship now. It may not be as bad as North Korea or the Soviet Union, but one can hardly consider Russia to be a free country in any way, shape, or form at this point.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
That is false. Gorbachev himself said the discussion of NATO expansion was never discussed or legally encoded and that which was discussed, was the expansion of NATO's military forces into territories of the GDR (East Germany).

The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”
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Ok. My bad. He was getting pressed on the topic but Russians never lie about that kind of thing I'm sure.
 
BlueRidgeFolklore said:
Putin had been building forces on the Ukrainian border for over a year, while the world was preoccupied by COVID, long before any Western media was calling for war or covering Ukraine's NATO quest. You're posturing all of this as Putin being backed into corner when in reality, he was the aggressor. Go back to March of last year, when EUCOM raised it's watch level for Ukraine from possible crisis to potential imminent crisis, the highest level, when it was estimated that Russia had amassed 100,000 troops at Ukraine's border over the previous months.

I'd be willing to wage that 90% of Americans had no clue this even happened.

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There is also the breakaway states of Donetsk and Lukhansk. The population there is in favor of independence from the Ukrainian state . Ukraine denied them that and has been at war for 8 years . Russia recognized their independence . NATO would be hypocritical if it didn’t recognize the will of the people . Never forget the Kosovo debacle ….


www.google.com

Locals in Ukraine breakaway regions recount short-lived joy, hope

Residents of Ukraine’s statelets recount their joy over Russia’s recognition of their independence – and what came next.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
severestorm said:
Eliminated!! Person who took them out deserves a medal.

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The Chechen people fought 2 wars against Russian and 1 against Putin . They lost a ton only for Putin to crush them and place his crony who currently leads them . Crazy to think they went from fighting the Russian state 15 years ago to fighting for it .
 
Claycochaser said:
Ok. My bad. He was getting pressed on the topic but Russians never lie about that kind of thing I'm sure.
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He was pressed because it came to light years later through transcripts from James Baker, Steven Pifer and Helmut Kohl, that NATO expansion to other Warsaw Pact nations, was never brought up. I mean it was Gorbachev himself who claimed the Western leaders said: 'We will not move 1 centimeter further east," years earlier. That was his quote, nobody else. It was finally in 2014 when Gorbachev admitted "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was never discussed; it was not raised in those years. I am saying this with a full sense of responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country brought up the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist in 1991."

I am not even sure it would make sense to fear NATO expansion at that time, when Gorbachev was hellbent on abandoning the Brezhnev Doctrine, the Warsaw Pact, while introducing Democratic reform to a previously Communist nation, along with a quasi-Capitalist economy. Why fear NATO when he alone was dismantling the USSR and making Russia as Western as it had ever been? That makes no sense, and aligns with the idea that it was likely never discussed.
 
Lickwx said:
There is also the breakaway states of Donetsk and Lukhansk. The population there is in favor of independence from the Ukrainian state . Ukraine denied them that and has been at war for 8 years . Russia recognized their independence . NATO would be hypocritical if it didn’t recognize the will of the people . Never forget the Kosovo debacle ….


www.google.com

Locals in Ukraine breakaway regions recount short-lived joy, hope

Residents of Ukraine’s statelets recount their joy over Russia’s recognition of their independence – and what came next.
www.google.com www.google.com
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This is not quite correct some of the people in those areas wanted to break away and are pro Russian...but polls taken just a few years ago show the majority favored returning fully to Ukraine.....thus the reason Ukraine has been fighting so hard. This has from day one been a ploy by Russia to get these regions under their control. The reason Ukraine denied it is that something like 65% of the people there never wanted to leave in the first place. The separatist only controlled maybe a 3rd of the area in the Donbass region along the Russian border the rest was in Ukraine's control.

theconversation.com

Most people in separatist-held areas of Donbas prefer reintegration with Ukraine – new survey

What do the people of the Donbas want for their future?
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
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Russian media right now.....

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Lickwx said:
The Chechen people fought 2 wars against Russian and 1 against Putin . They lost a ton only for Putin to crush them and place his crony who currently leads them . Crazy to think they went from fighting the Russian state 15 years ago to fighting for it .
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They fight everybody. Ruthless SOB's....We had a time with them in Afghanistan
 
Downeastnc said:
This is not quite correct some of the people in those areas wanted to break away and are pro Russian...but polls taken just a few years ago show the majority favored returning fully to Ukraine.....thus the reason Ukraine has been fighting so hard. This has from day one been a ploy by Russia to get these regions under their control. The reason Ukraine denied it is that something like 65% of the people there never wanted to leave in the first place. The separatist only controlled maybe a 3rd of the area in the Donbass region along the Russian border the rest was in Ukraine's control.

theconversation.com

Most people in separatist-held areas of Donbas prefer reintegration with Ukraine – new survey

What do the people of the Donbas want for their future?
theconversation.com theconversation.com
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To clarify though, the poll was taken of those residents living in Ukraine government held areas, which is a little over half of each republic prior to the start of hostilities. Who knows what everyone actually feels about independence from Ukraine. I know that area of Ukraine has always been more pro Russian than other areas of the country.
 
We talk out of both sides of our mouths. Had Iran in a box and gonna let em out, holding hands with Russia and throwing out hellicopter money to do it. In spite of everything going on currently.


freebeacon.com

Biden Admin Relies on Russia to Finalize Iran Nuclear Deal as Putin Invades Ukraine

Even as Moscow invades Ukraine, the Biden administration is relying on Russia to solidify a revamped nuclear agreement with Iran, a deal that senior Republican foreign policy leaders say will be approved in the coming days without any input from Congress.
freebeacon.com freebeacon.com
 
Philstorm91 said:
To clarify though, the poll was taken of those residents living in Ukraine government held areas, which is a little over half of each republic prior to the start of hostilities. Who knows what everyone actually feels about independence from Ukraine. I know that area of Ukraine has always been more pro Russian than other areas of the country.
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Well it was taken in both areas.....even 24% of the separatist region of Donbass wanted to be fully part of Ukraine again.....so really its closer to 70% of everyone in the Donbass region wanted to return fully to Ukraine....what there was not was this huge desire to be part of Russia and this notion that Russia is "rescuing" this region is total --------.



donbas-future.png
 
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