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Coronavirus (Stay on Topic)

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NoSnowATL

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"Sheesh guys. The reason the mortality rate in covid patients is down isn’t due to HCQ and Azithromycin."
I don't think anyone is say that the main contributor of the fall of covid deaths is due to this drug cocktail . The point is the attempts of halting of the use of them, due to their misleading of the public for political opertunity . They painted thia as a dangerous drug with zero benefits. You have stated that, you have given out HCQ to your customers for awhile for other reasons. Did you ever think that you was doing them harm? Probably not, I would think.
But , If these findings are found to be true, then many people died due to fraud. These people should be made an example of with public hearings and very long jail terms, topped with hefty fines to prevent this again.
Dr. Fraud needs to be 1st in line.
 

Shaggy

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My friend who has done clinical trials for the last 4 years has done NUMEROUS covid trials. She has done HCQ, Remidisvir, a cancer drug so new it had no name and azithromycin and none had entirely positive definitive conclusions. Some had mixed results and some had ZERO benefits.
 

Jon

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"Sheesh guys. The reason the mortality rate in covid patients is down isn’t due to HCQ and Azithromycin."
I don't think anyone is say that the main contributor of the fall of covid deaths is due to this drug cocktail . The point is the attempts of halting of the use of them, due to their misleading of the public for political opertunity . They painted thia as a dangerous drug with zero benefits. You have stated that, you have given out HCQ to your customers for awhile for other reasons. Did you ever think that you was doing them harm? Probably not, I would think.
But , If these findings are found to be true, then many people died due to fraud. These people should be made an example of with public hearings and very long jail terms, topped with hefty fines to prevent this again.
Ok. I don’t think the HCQ doubts were political so this is the divide we are seeing and continue to see a year later. That’s the difference here in these posts. I have science, I’d ask people who argue for HCQ use, what they have? It could have helped more? People forget we did use and tried to use HCQ. It failed. Who is “they”??? “They painted this as a dangerous drug” who are you talking about? The medical community at large? Experts in their fields?

The HCQ i “give out” to my patients is FDA approved for those treatments because years of clinical trials show clear benefit. It’s evidence based treatment that works.

HCQ became political once the president pushed for it without clear evidence it helped outcomes. Everyone wanted a cure at that time, we were in the middle of something we had no understanding of and all hospital protocols were throwing the kitchen sink at people to save their life. We were so scared and desperate, but we have come a long way since then. Hospitals all over the world tried HCQ+AZ+/-Zinc, our own government stockpiled millions upon millions of doses that went to waste! It didn’t work. It doesn’t work. If it did, early on, it would be adopted as the sole treatment by areas that aren’t political…but all we saw were very poor countries using it because they don’t have the resources we do — that’s not proof of use, thats desperation.


Look, I believe withholding treatment of a life saving therapy due to political reasons deserves jail time, but haven’t seen evidence of that…and a pre-print of a retrospective observational study of 200 people isn’t that.
 

Arcc

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Ok. I don’t think the HCQ doubts were political so this is the divide we are seeing and continue to see a year later. That’s the difference here in these posts. I have science, I’d ask people who argue for HCQ use, what they have? It could have helped more? People forget we did use and tried to use HCQ. It failed. Who is “they”??? “They painted this as a dangerous drug” who are you talking about? The medical community at large? Experts in their fields?

The HCQ i “give out” to my patients is FDA approved for those treatments because years of clinical trials show clear benefit. It’s evidence based treatment that works.

HCQ became political once the president pushed for it without clear evidence it helped outcomes. Everyone wanted a cure at that time, we were in the middle of something we had no understanding of and all hospital protocols were throwing the kitchen sink at people to save their life. We were so scared and desperate, but we have come a long way since then. Hospitals all over the world tried HCQ+AZ+/-Zinc, our own government stockpiled millions upon millions of doses that went to waste! It didn’t work. It doesn’t work. If it did, early on, it would be adopted as the sole treatment by areas that aren’t political…but all we saw were very poor countries using it because they don’t have the resources we do — that’s not proof of use, thats desperation.


Look, I believe withholding treatment of a life saving therapy due to political reasons deserves jail time, but haven’t seen evidence of that…and a pre-print of a retrospective observational study of 200 people isn’t that.
Well here is one.

 

VegasEagle

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Ok. I don’t think the HCQ doubts were political so this is the divide we are seeing and continue to see a year later. That’s the difference here in these posts. I have science, I’d ask people who argue for HCQ use, what they have? It could have helped more? People forget we did use and tried to use HCQ. It failed. Who is “they”??? “They painted this as a dangerous drug” who are you talking about? The medical community at large? Experts in their fields?

The HCQ i “give out” to my patients is FDA approved for those treatments because years of clinical trials show clear benefit. It’s evidence based treatment that works.

HCQ became political once the president pushed for it without clear evidence it helped outcomes. Everyone wanted a cure at that time, we were in the middle of something we had no understanding of and all hospital protocols were throwing the kitchen sink at people to save their life. We were so scared and desperate, but we have come a long way since then. Hospitals all over the world tried HCQ+AZ+/-Zinc, our own government stockpiled millions upon millions of doses that went to waste! It didn’t work. It doesn’t work. If it did, early on, it would be adopted as the sole treatment by areas that aren’t political…but all we saw were very poor countries using it because they don’t have the resources we do — that’s not proof of use, thats desperation.


Look, I believe withholding treatment of a life saving therapy due to political reasons deserves jail time, but haven’t seen evidence of that…and a pre-print of a retrospective observational study of 200 people isn’t that.
What is your opinion on this.....
 

Arcc

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I thought this tweet and study from over a year ago, was already debunked.

It was. Eric “b117 variant superspread apocalypse” Topol quickly posted the extremely bad study that was published by The Lancet and quickly pushed by national media(with Trump front and center) and stopped clinical trials. Topol links several in his thread.

Just a little example of the “who” who pushed the dangerous part.
 

Jon

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What is your opinion on this.....
Looking through the Website, it’s a attempt at a meta analysis of RCTs and observational trials that are largely flawed (probably 99% of them are flawed lol). The website is not fair in their critique (literature analysis) of positive trials versus negative trials. You can see this in their summaries. Usefully when you evaluate medical literature, even trials that show positive results should be criticized, because even good results can be flawed (obviously, right? It could be either intentional or unintentional). That website, hcqmeta, it’s obviously biased…but an interesting and impressive assimilation of data, I just wish it wasn’t bias toward HCQ treatment.
 

Jon

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That was the laughably bad study that was published, pushed and quickly retracted.
There’s also laughably bad studies showing HCQ benefit that don’t even make it to publishing.

In literature evaluation, a study can be bad and be published. If happens dozens of times throughout the year, that’s why they’re peer reviewed and allow comments. This only made news because it’s controversial, not because it’s unheard of or conspiracy driven. I think I remember commenting about this trial. The lancet is a great journal.
 

VegasEagle

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There’s also laughably bad studies showing HCQ benefit that don’t even make it to publishing.

In literature evaluation, a study can be bad and be published. If happens dozens of times throughout the year, that’s why they’re peer reviewed and allow comments. This only made news because it’s controversial, not because it’s unheard of or conspiracy driven. I think I remember commenting about this trial. The lancet is a great journal.
How much is the typical prescription of HCQ for your customers?
 

Jon

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How much is the typical prescription of HCQ for your customers?
Under $20 with insurance or without, normally…when it was hard to get, suppliers were price gouging and it was 10x as expensive to get so my pharmacy lost money on all the prescriptions we filled (because insurance reimbursed us at the low rate)…and cash paying customers paid close to our cost.
 

Arcc

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There’s also laughably bad studies showing HCQ benefit that don’t even make it to publishing.

In literature evaluation, a study can be bad and be published. If happens dozens of times throughout the year, that’s why they’re peer reviewed and allow comments. This only made news because it’s controversial, not because it’s unheard of or conspiracy driven. I think I remember commenting about this trial. The lancet is a great journal.
I’m sure there are bad studies. My point in posting this was more of how fast the media and people like Topol jumped on the study because it conflicted with Trump. Whether or not HCQ is effective, can be debated, however a drug should never ever be politically used to the point that a tidal wave is built against it to tear it down just because you don’t like who promotes it.
 

VegasEagle

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Under $20 with insurance or without, normally…when it was hard to get, suppliers were price gouging and it was 10x as expensive to get so my pharmacy lost money on all the prescriptions we filled (because insurance reimbursed us at the low rate)…and cash paying customers paid close to our cost.
It is just my opinion but... I believe there is no money in a $20 person, than ... ( largest money grad opportunity ever) ... Screenshot_20210610-140924_Google.jpg
 

Jon

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Very rare, but this will be interesting:


This is ~100 cases out of 10 million kinda rare, but we will see what they say.
 
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Jon

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I’m sure there are bad studies. My point in posting this was more of how fast the media and people like Topol jumped on the study because it conflicted with Trump. Whether or not HCQ is effective, can be debated, however a drug should never ever be politically used to the point that a tidal wave is built against it to tear it down just because you don’t like who promotes it.
Where I think trump went wrong is not just because of who he is, but that he blurted the drug names out in a WH press conference…and numerous tweets in all caps, which caused a panic and drug shortage…because the president of the United States who is privileged to information during a deadly pandemic, he’s worth listening to and many people believe him…saying the drugs could “possibly be a cure” I believe were the words he used.

so naturally medical doctors and drug experts try to hit the breaks and say wait, not only because of the anecdotal evidence of the use but because drug shortages hurt others. I remember hearing him say the names during the presser on the radio and saying “oh my god, we’re gonna run out”

And just like that we had a State order from the NCBOP to mitigate drug shortages as a fallout from that presser.

This was hanging in our work:

And this was posted March 22, I believe like a day after the press conference:


So yeah I’m not sure the motivation was political. In my eyes it wasn’t, but in yours I’m sure it was and that’s where we’re different on this.
 

VegasEagle

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Where I think trump went wrong is not just because of who he is, but that he blurted the drug names out in a WH press conference…and numerous tweets in all caps, which caused a panic and drug shortage…because the president of the United States who is privileged to information during a deadly pandemic, he’s worth listening to and many people believe him…saying the drugs could “possibly be a cure” I believe were the words he used.

so naturally medical doctors and drug experts try to hit the breaks and say wait, not only because of the anecdotal evidence of the use but because drug shortages hurt others. I remember hearing him say the names during the presser on the radio and saying “oh my god, we’re gonna run out”

And just like that we had a State order from the NCBOP to mitigate drug shortages as a fallout from that presser.

This was hanging in our work:

And this was posted March 22, I believe like a day after the press conference:


So yeah I’m not sure the motivation was political. In my eyes it wasn’t, but in yours I’m sure it was and that’s where we’re different on this.
I do understand that on medical issues , you will always be 100 times greater than me. But, sure seems like this became political as soon Trump brought it up. Why, was HCQ side effects not a problem in January or February of 2020, but, it was March 2020. ( you don't have to answer, just speaking in general ). Would not a cheap and already available drug, take away over a TRILLION dollar possibly money haul? Seems like there would great interest to derail this possible fix, and, help achieve political points to 👢. Just, somethings to think apon, but, I return back to being an interested and happy party in reading your post.
 

Rain Cold

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What were the official recommendations for treatment for Covid from the CDC and/or other authorotative medical organizations, prior to the vaccine?
 

Rain Cold

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Water, rest and stay home.
Ok, that's what I was remembering too. I was thinking it was weird how the only treatment option was to just hang out until you got bad enough to have to go to the hospital. At least with almost every other illness, they have treatment options.
 

Jon

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What were the official recommendations for treatment for Covid from the CDC and/or other authorotative medical organizations, prior to the vaccine?
I posted a hospital protocol in here one time, but can’t find the link right now. Outpatient was supportive care at home until you got bad off…but as you can see from the State Order doctors were writing prescriptions for HCQ for at home treatment and if it had the covid ICD-10 diagnosis code on the RX, we dispensed it. It was rare to see prescriptions after the order, but we saw them.
 

Jon

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The US following the UK’s lead since the start of June is concerning here. Divergence from other countries which are squashing R0.




The Delta variant, also called B.1.617, is responsible. It’s now running rampant in the UK, and our low vaccination rates in the Southeast is concerning, as the variant is rising in the United States. As most may know, of our states are lowest in the nation for fully vaccinated…

NC 37%
SC 35%
GA 33%
LA 32%
AL 30%
TN 32%
MS 28%

Compare this with the Northeast:
Vermont 59%
Maine 57%
Mass 57%
CT 56%

I really hope we get to enjoy our summer and life the rest of the way mask free. I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated but I know it’s a choice. We are seeing delta “breakthrough” infections in vaccinated people, but large population spread of this variant in the UK is due to the unvaccinated, and they are at 43%, which is the point I’m making here.

 

Broken024

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The US following the UK’s lead since the start of June is concerning here. Divergence from other countries which are squashing R0.




The Delta variant, also called B.1.617, is responsible. It’s now running rampant in the UK, and our low vaccination rates in the Southeast is concerning, as the variant is rising in the United States. As most may know, of our states are lowest in the nation for fully vaccinated…

NC 37%
SC 35%
GA 33%
LA 32%
AL 30%
TN 32%
MS 28%

Compare this with the Northeast:
Vermont 59%
Maine 57%
Mass 57%
CT 56%

I really hope we get to enjoy our summer and life the rest of the way mask free. I would encourage everyone to get vaccinated but I know it’s a choice. We are seeing delta “breakthrough” infections in vaccinated people, but large population spread of this variant in the UK is due to the unvaccinated, and they are at 43%, which is the point I’m making here.

We suck at snow and vaccines
 
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